Keith There was one other statement you made that I would like to respond to. You wrote, " But it is my experience that the subconscious minds are often not well trained." From my point of view, you are correct. And this is the point that Carmen and I stress in all our training. The unconscious mind has great power but no ability to organize itself; the conscious mind has great ability to organize but no power to accomplish anything of note. Thus, our point - the objective is to form an alliance between the two such that as a team with the conscious mind contributing its organizational abilities and the unconscious mind contributing its ability to make things happen, we have a system that works extremely well. One final comment - in many places and at different times, Bateson (both publicly and in personal communcation) emphasized that the logic of consciousness and the the logic of unconscious processes are incommenserate - in Whispering, Carmen and I attempt to refine and make explicit some of the differences between these two logics. Bateson went on to note that this incommenserate relationship of the logics that drives this two great processes within us leads to what an essential tension between the two within us. He further proposes that any resolution of this essential tension - either by attempting to live entirely consciously or entirely unconsciously guarentees that the person who so attempts to resolve this essential tension by such a move will never produce great art - neither in the typical sense of art nor in the art of living. All the best, John