Forum Message

Topic: Re; style of posts
Posted by: Michael Carroll
Date/Time: 04/12/2002 00:44:33


Welcome to the forum.

As you know Phil, I do enjoy irony and here I am in my role as web master here calling you to task on the relevancy of your post, as I have done to many others in this forum when their posts are off topic.

I would prefer Phil, if you report in this forum what you learnt at the course specifically using the forum topics (see foot of this post) and writing in sensory grounded language. To give you an example from the course you refer to in your post -you could describe the discovery you and your colleagues made about the importance of the unconscious uptake in the mini modelling project your group undertook when modelling Toon's shaitsu massage skills. The unconscious uptake was a revelation to a few people on the course who had previously learnt to model asking questions of the model first. Your group discovered that conscious knowledge of the acupuncture pressure points was conscious content not relevant to replicating the skill and was idiosyncratic to Toon  the model in doing what he calls shaitsu massage.  If the group had focussed their conscious attention on acupuncture pressure point descriptions - by asking Toon (the model) questions they would have been chasing a red herring. Mapping this example to the original NLP modelling projects Bandler and Grinder did not need to know Erickon's experience of psychiatry or Satir's knowledge of family therapy to develop the Milton Model and Meta Model. 

The importance of avoiding conscious interpretation during the unconscious uptake in the Shaitsu example was further demonstrated in the same modelling exercise -when Paul the modeller while conducting a massage, inadvertently began describing the manoeuvres he was learning during the unconscious uptake phase  -. Paul soon discovered he was unable to replicate the skill because his verbal description (PP1 F2 transforms) removed him from his second perceptual position where he should have been at the part of the exercise. This was great learning point for the group -demonstrating the distinctions between performance in FA and know nothing state to the modeller's own PP1 F2 transforms and being unable to replicate the skill at the unconscious uptake phase.

Phil, I provide the above description to you and others as an example of how you can report what you learn at courses in way that will benefit others in the forum, and open up further lines of discussion on the topic being discussed along the lines of NLP modelling or application. The style of posting I describe also enables us to stay within the topics we use as guidelines for posting in this forum.

Phil on the subject of modelling; you suggest in your post that if you can achieve 50% of someone's skill you would be satisfied. This is not a good position to start your modelling as your suggestion defeats the very purpose of modelling. The idea of modelling is that you can replicate the skill at the same level as the model - and then create a model where you can exceed the levels of competence displayed by the model. Then you teach others to get the same or better results than the model. An example of modellers exceeding the competence of the model is presented in Whispering where John Grinder refers to Bandler and Pucelik's replication of Fritz Perls work.  John Grinder writes  "Indeed when I later compared their work with Perl's work presented on film and audio tape, I found Pucelik and Bandler's work to be significantly more effective than the model (Perls) they were imitating " ------page 143 whispering in the Wind.

To everyone in this forum there are plenty of ways to report what you learn at courses in this forum and relate the discussion to Whispering as the book is about NLP application and NLP modelling. Using our guideline of topics below contributors should easily be able to create interesting posts that fuel discussion, learning and interaction in the forum.  The key is sensory specific useful content that we can learn from and build upon. The way not do it is simply offering tons of praise of another person, even if that person is John Grinder or Carmen Bostic without describing the skill that person demonstrates and how that skill might be useful to other people.

To all;  Phil wrote to John and Carmen " I know that you are connected to the NLP Academy,"

To clarify John and Carmen's connection with the NLP Academy. I own the NLP Academy, and the company promotes Grinder/Bostic seminars in the UK. John and Carmen are not connected in the business administration or ownership of the company. The company hosts many different NLP events with a variety of trainers some of which John and Carmen do not personally know. The  Bostic/Grinder connection therefore is NOT an endorsement of other NLP Academy courses and products.

Phil, thanks for your kind words- but I say in this forum as I said on the course - lets stay relevant, and lets stay relatively sensory specific to report our leanings.

Here are the forum topics as guidelines for posts

1. Modeling
2. Applications
3. New Code
4. Proposed Solutions to Puzzles and Recommendations
5. Origins and Definitions
6. Epistemology

What a wonderful choice..... happy posting

Be well mate


For Grinder/Bostic seminars in the UK see

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
nlp academy02/12/2002 20:48:32phil jarvis
     Re; style of posts 04/12/2002 00:44:33Michael Carroll
          Re:Re; style of posts 04/12/2002 18:36:26phil jarvis
               Re:Re:Re; style of posts 04/12/2002 22:58:34Michael Carroll

Forum Home