JB There seems to be two questions in your posting" 1. the first concersn what the appropriate use of the Meta Model in modeling is - Here is the footnote from Whispering that amplifies the comment you repeat in your email - we trust it will assist in addressing your first question, especially the last paragraph of this footnote: "15. In addition, the personal metaphors of the source may be artistic but rarely do they offer any insight into how to usefully code the patterning. In this sense, they typically prove to be misleading. Further, it is often the case that the source finds such activity quite uncomfortable. Self-modeling is one of the most difficult tasks imaginable in our field of endeavor. The source of the patterning is being asked to make his own tacit behavior explicit. Highly talented individuals (sources) often have strong if metaphoric opinions about what they are doing. Since the criteria for an effective model are learnability and efficient transfer of the patterning with the consequences that the learner demonstrates behavior approximating that of the original source, the particular metaphors of the source may actually inhibit this activity. They may constitute an obstacle to the development of an adequate model (as judged by the criteria just mentioned) or precipitate a rift between the model and the modeler over the questions of what the “real “ model should be. There is some value in presenting the source with meta model questions as long as the modeler appreciates the above point and explicitly recognizes that point of asking the meta model question is not to secure a useful verbal response to the question but to stimulate the internal, unconscious processes of the source, thereby creating an opportunity for the modeler to calibrate - that is, read the non - verbal responses of the source in order to appreciate the answer to the question at the non-verbal level. This can at times greatly facilitate further research by the modeler." 2. Your second question was answered 25+ years ago in The Structure of Magic - the only additional comment is that there are traffic rules in applying the meta model - namely, nail down the nouns (including recovering deletions) and then get the verbs, challenge modal operators whenever they are uncovered. All the best, John and Carmen