Forum Message

Topic: To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ
Posted by: nj
Date/Time: 14/07/2002 23:15:26

Hi, Michael.

Below I added 8 possible answers to my old list of FAQ answers from the "Regarding Newsgroup Software" thread.  There are 28 answered questions listed below.  The answers are taken from the author's posts.  In a post to "Regarding Newsgroup Software", you wrote that you wanted a volunteer to help create a FAQ for the forum.  It seemed OK to post my FAQ ideas to the "Regarding Newsgroup Software" thread.  But a guest here recently wrote that my posts to the "Regarding Newsgroup Software" thread are gratuitous.  This new thread will separate future posts on the topic of a forum FAQ from the "Regarding Newsgroup Software" thread.

As before, below I list content extracted from the author's replies to guest postings.  Each item of extracted content is listed as a question/answer pair.  Following each pair is a reference pointing to the thread reply from which I copied the answer content.  The reply number in the reference is the count of the source author reply post.  That count numbers each author reply in the source thread, in order of date of reply, "reply 1" being the earliest reply.
On my list of possible FAQ answers:

(1)a FAQ answer is a quote from an author's reply. I might have deleted the name of the person the authors replied to in their answer from the quote.  Sorry.

(2)A FAQ question is either taken from a post addressed to the authors, an edited (for clarity) version of a posted question, or a question I constructed.

This FAQ may include statements that help readers answer questions they have without posting those questions to Dr. Grinder, Ms. St Clair, or you.  That result of posting a FAQ is my goal I serve with these FAQ items I suggest below.



title: possible additions to a FAQ for this group

1. Why did you and Bandler split up?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: you'll find the answer in "Whispering In The Wind"
[Ed, 22/04, "John I have to ask this", reply 2]

2. What is Dr. Grinder's opinion of Mr. Bandler and his work?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: you'll find the answer in "Whispering In The Wind"
[Ed, 22/04, "John I have to ask this", reply 2]

3. Will Dr. Grinder have a world tour?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: I have no new world tour. If I had one, I would likely pursue advanced versions on the work developed in Whispering.
[karlcharter, 24/04, "May 4 Toronto Seminar", reply 1]

4.I am wondering if there are scheduled events in the US for 2002 or 2003.
[Elvis Lester, 23/04, "Training Opportunities &", reply 1]

5. Who gave John Grinder the right to decide what is NLP?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: who gave John Grinder the right to decide what is proper NLP, the simple answer is: No one!

The more extended response is offered by saying:

(5.)1. While as the co-creator of NLP, I have the right to explicate the intention behind the creation of NLP and its intended boundary conditions, I clearly have no right (nor the ability or interest) in making the decision as to whether the NLP community will accept those boundary conditons. Carmen and I did think it important to declare what the original intention was to ensure that the ensuing discussion has available the historical intentions behind the creation of the field as one of the data to consider in making this crucial decision.

(5.)2. as Carmen and I declared in multiple parts of Whispering, our intention is to provoke responses from the NLP community - the group that surely historically will decide what the boundary conditions will be. In other words, we recognize that NLP is far bigger than either or both of its co-creators. Decide well!
[Someone Special, 02/05, "Content vs form and neurological something", message 1]

6. How or where was anchoring discovered by John Grinder and Richard Bandler?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: Anchoring was a class of patternings that Richard and I worked out before we had contact with Erickson. We noted it simply through repeated observations of reoccurring states and noted that they were being elicited by repetative cues. These observations led us to positive agressive exploration of the patterning involved and the systematic manipulation of the variables that are its elements.
[Uncle Fester, 07/05, "Origin of Anchoring?", reply 1]

7. Is strategy elicitation modeling?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: The strategy elicitation approach while respecting the need of a modeler to use unconscious behavior as a primary source of patterning in the model does not respect the unconscious assimulation requirement in which the modeler avoids any conscious appreciation of the model's behavior until he or she can replicate the effects that the model achieves
[Stephen M. Hawley, 09/05, "Modeling", reply 1]

8. Is asserting what is ethical and what is not ethical an imposition on the NLP community of the ethics of John Grinder and Carmen Bostic St. Clair?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: We are proposing a set of examples well enough defined to stimulate discussion and declaring that we have as of yet not succeeded in developing a formal definition. Our intention by proposing or asserting a position is to offer a starting point for discussion that will ultimately be owned by the community. This is, indeed, the movement behind much of what we present in Whispering.
[Loren Larson,12/05, "A few questions", reply 1]

9. Are all NLP applications therapeutic applications?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: The simple answer is NO, not all applications are therapeutic - all applications of NLP coded patterns to business (you mention sales as a legitimate example) sports (choice of state and state maintenance issue, for example) medicine...
are legitimate and powerful applications.
[Thomas,06/05,"Are all nlp-applications therapeutical?", reply 1]

10. I want to see the New Code patterns listed in "Whispering In The Wind".

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: Thanks for your enthusiasm and hunger for the additional New Code Patterns. We hope to offer a more thorough treatment in writing within the next year. We attempted to cover a lot in Whispering and obviously not all subjects could be presented in depth.
[Thomas, 06/05, "Representations of John and Carmen's latest developments", message 1]

11. When will "RedTail Math" be published?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: Thanks for the interest. Our target is 2003.
[Carol, 15/05,"RedTail Math", reply 1]

12. What is the definition of state?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: In NLP, state is (in our opinion and work) most usefully defined with reference to physiology - see the section on the Chain of Excellence in the New Code portion of Whispering.
[Thomas, 08/05, "What is the definition of variables?", reply 1]

13. What are differences between using the New Code format and its associated games versus self hypnosis?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: One set of quite obvious differences between using the New Code format and its associated games and self hypnosis contains among others the following differences:

(13.)1. the New Code generates de novo a high performance state that is entirely independent of any previous experiences

(13.)2. the New Code format has an explicit containing frame - the context to which the change is confined. Some self hypnosis formats have a counterpart, others not.
[John P., 20/05, "Role of self-hypnosis", reply 1]

14. What can you say about the classification of ASL as a full syntactical language?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: If we left the impression that there was any doubt about ASL being classified as a full syntactic language, read the material on page 111 - 112, in footnote 16.
[Robin, 20/05, "Washoe and ASL"]

15. What are some guidelines for posting here?

Webmaster Michael Carroll:
This forum was set up as means to provide interested members of the NLP community to involve themselves in the discussion and hopefully, the development of a set of actions congruent with the recommendations we offer in Whispering. We encourage all interested parties to express their responses here. Please keep your postings relevant to the contents of Whispering. The book is so comprehensive so you have a broad scope.

The following topics will appear here in the near future as a series of mini forums to keep the discussion focussed.  

(15.)1. Modeling
(15.)2. Applications
(15.)3. New Code
(15.)4. Proposed Solutions to Puzzles and Recommendations
(15.)5. Origins and Definitions
(15.)6. Epistemology

Until the mini forums are loaded, could you please indicate in the title of your post which category your post falls into from the 6 mentioned above. For example if you are making a post regarding the 6 Step Reframe you would in your title state- Applications; 6 step reframe. If you are making a post regarding a model you would like to present, in your title write- Modeling; XYZ model, and so on.

16. Why is the Meta Model so important?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair:  Read Whispering where this question is handled.
[James Bond,"Back to the basics -- Meta Model",31/05, reply 1]

17. What is a good book to start with to study MM?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair:  Read Whispering where this question is handled.
[James Bond,"Back to the basics -- Meta Model",31/05, reply 1]

18. John Is pacing more important than leading and where does my calibration start SPECIFICALLY to begin pacing?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair:  Read Whispering where this question is handled.
[James Bond,"Back to the basics -- Meta Model",31/05, reply 1]

19. John looking back in your mind what was some slick experential applications of the Meta Model?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair:  Read Whispering where this question is handled.
[James Bond,"Back to the basics -- Meta Model",31/05, reply 1]

20.  What is 'triple description''?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair:  Read Whispering where this question is handled.
[James Bond,"Back to the basics -- Meta Model",31/05, reply 1]

21.  In your modelling projects, have you found any examples of contexts where internal dialogue contributes to higher performance rather than inhibiting it?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: In general, the high performance states we have modeled are characterized by an absence of internal dialogue. There are, however, exceptions. We offer one by way of illustration. Both of us are private pilots. Some years ago, I (John) was flying a single engine aerobatic aircraft (a Decathalon) under VFR conditions when I was suddenly struck by a serene quiet (only the sound of the air rushing over the wings and around the fuselage) - my engine has stopped. At that instant and even as I began to look around for somewhere to set my aircraft down, I distinctly heard in his clipped public school accent, David Gaster's (my friend and instructor for flying) voice articulating the sequence of steps for Re-Starting Engine in Air checklist. I simply followed the sequence and managed to get the engine functioning again prior to having to land in a field. This is an excellent deployment of internal dialogue in a high pressure, relatively high performance situation.
[John P., "internal dialogue",26/06, reply 1]

22.  If lack of internal dialogue is desirable for high performance states how could I learn to do that?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: As to how you could learn to have the choice of having or not having internal dialogue, well that is the question but one I fear exceeds this format.
[John P., "internal Dialogue",26/06, reply 1]

23. Did Anthony Robbins attended your and Richard's early seminars? 

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: Tony was a student of mine (JG) in a certification I did in Los Angeles in the early '80s. While I have severe difficulties with Tony's prime metaphor, power (as opposed to empowerment) and some of his pyramid marketing processes... he was an excellent student.  So much so that at the end of the course, he approached me and asked for a task to demonstate that (now paraphrasing him from memory) "not only has NLP changed my life but I recognize that modeling is the key to mastering NLP."
You know something - he was right. The task we agreed on sent him in search of phenomena that occur in other cultures but are considered more or less impossible by western standards (this was my obsession at the time) Fire walking was the result and the rest is history.
The only connection I am aware of between Bandler and Robbins was a law suit filed (surprise) by Bandler in the '80s that was settled prior to trial and the records (like some lips) are sealed.
[Brenda Femonti, "Robert Dilts Response",10/07, reply 1]

24. What do you think NLP could contribute to the discussion of consciousness?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: Whispering itself - the entire book - is an extended exercise in responding to that question. We offer two additional comments:

(24.)1. until the powerful and pervasive role of unconscious processes are recognized and explored as well, studies in consciousness will not move very far. Thus, our insistance on the inclusion in practice and training of explicit representations and interactions with the unconscious processes. The role of unconscious process in the heart of NLP - modeling - is critical and distinguishes studies of excellence in patterning from other logical types of modeling.

(24.)2. NLP, at present, contains a set of operational distinctions that are significantly more refined that what is presently being manipulated in linguistics, psychology... Thus, the potential for an excellent, even revolutionary contribution is sitting on the table. Simply teasing out the implication of the identification of the interface between natural language structures and FA (or equivalently, the 4 tuple) or the distinction between the different logical structures of f1 and f2 would clarify significant portions of the research being conducted at present in "approved" psychology. Of special  importance is the fact that the distinctions available in NLP are operational. They are not theoretical concepts - they are concrete patterns that can be applied in multiple contexts to explore the phenomena that you mention in your posting.
[Lee, "Frontier Science, epistemology, and 'spooky action at a distance'?", 06/07, reply 1]

25. How will the NLP field establish the requisite credibility to allow its voice to be heard?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: We attempt in Whispering to stimulate investigations and to influence both the way they are conducted and the manner in which they are reported. As we pointedly say until there is a commitment to such investigations, to curbing the exagerated market driven form in which the results of such investigations are presented and the acceptance of the usual characteristics of scientific activity (explict presentation of results and methods for replicating the work...) are respected by people working in NLP, there is little chance that our more traditional colleagues will recognize the contribution NLP has to offer. Whispering is chuck full of examples, ranging from the detailed analysis of an ideal sequence of investigating the NLP spelling strategy through the epistemological basis for the work down to tongue in cheek admonishments to people such as Eric Robbie for the misuse of terms such as "proof" that attempt to effect precisely the reform that we believe would allow NLP to take its rightful place in investigating the enormous human possibilities before us - in the case of NLP by focusing on that extreme of human performance - excellence.
[Lee, "Frontier Science, epistemology, and 'spooky action at a distance'?", 06/07, reply 1]

26. What kind of phenomenon is consciousness?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: There are two classes of interesting responses to the question - each cast in its own terminology and tradition: that of the neurologist (which structures and processes in what sequence are present when the subject reports different distinct classes of consciousness or performs certain tasks that presuppose consciousness?). Such research (as we suggested in Whispering) is fundamentally a critical part of an integrated effort to explore human epistemology.

The second class of interesting responses to the question (we do prefer your re-phrasing) is exactly the class the tools developed inadvertantly through NLP modeling [that NLP modeling] is positioned to make.
[Lee, "Frontier Science, epistemology, and 'spooky action at a distance'?", 06/07, reply 2]
note: check that my addition "that nlp modeling", shown in square brackets, is correct.

27. Can you effectively model from previous experience and connection with someone or is it more appropriate that they are "live" and in front of you at the time?"

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: The real barrier to modeling people who you have never seen performing in context is the absence of context and in particular, that portion of context which offers you access to the responses that the model is eliciting in his or her audience, group, individual. This portion of context is crucial (given our definition of NLP modeling in Whispering) as it is the only way to effectively imitate your model and know whether you are closing on replicating their performance.
[Clive Alcock, "Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Deep Trance Identification", 01/07, reply 4]

28. How would you recommend that one should train or do in order to be competent in the extreme when it comes to using the nlp-patterns?

Dr. Grinder & Ms. St Clair: Our answer is alarmingly simple - practice, practice, practice. Make a simple listing of all the variations on anchoring (there is a brief discussion in Whispering where many of the essential variables involved in anchoring are identified), then make a listing of contexts of relevance for yourself and systematically work your way through the matrix generated by the intersection of these two lists. When you have completed this task to criteria, cross the anchoring variations with other sets of patterns to achieve integrated operational competence.
[Thomas, "How to Learn NLP",12/07, reply 1]

-----  Here is an additional list of purchase-related questions written without answers and without thread references.  -----

A revised list of FAQ purchase questions appears below:

1.  where can I buy the book?

2.  how long will it take to receive the book, after I order it?

3.  what should I do if the book is later than ?

4.  What credit cards can be used to purchase the book?

5.  Can I buy the book if I live in the UK (substitute any foreign country) without paying for shipping from the U.S.?

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ14/07/2002 23:15:26nj
     Re:To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ16/07/2002 23:58:22Michael Carroll
          Re:Re:To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ17/07/2002 00:54:48nj
               Re:Re:Re:To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ27/10/2003 05:36:13nj
     Re:To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ27/10/2003 09:51:54George
          Re:Re:To: Webmaster Michael Carroll, Topic: Forum FAQ27/10/2003 10:21:00George

Forum Home