Two of the finest, (in my not so humble), opinion 'second generation' NLP trainers are no longer with us. I refer to Todd Epstein, and David Gaster. I don't know Todd's training antecedents, all I know is that he diligently spent time to teach and reprogram my transforms during a summer school at UCSC in the late 1980s. David is mentioned in WITW and I believe was registered as a trainer by John Grinder. I last met him in 1987, when once again he took time out to help the struggling beginner, which I was. The question is were both or either of these fine examples alive today would they be offering the same messages, or training as in the past? I don't think so, and I hope not for if generative change is possible, and these two could well demonstrate it when I knew them, then I would anticipate differences in their approaches and abilities now. Would their original certifiers recognise the validity of their trainings now? I can't say. Is a training certificate worth the paper it's written on? Probably not, since it indicates a competency within the standards of the day at one point in time/space. And I am unsure that membership of any NLP ‘official’ body, or society helps in any way. It seems to me that many (not necessarily NLP) societies have come into being as reactions to a ‘perceived’ threat, and because human beings seem to possess a perverse wish to organise others and themselves ;-)) But interestingly when I finally obtained a copy of WITW it answered a strange request that I 'put out' into 'the unconscious', years ago. That request was to have the book of the workshop that I attended with Dr. Grinder presenting individually as a trainer in London, entitled 'Prerequisites of Personal Genius'. This workshop I previously anticipated would follow the format described in 'Turtles All The Way Down.' It did not follow that format closely, but I was not disappointed. Many of the stories and patterns that I experienced in that late 1980s workshop are retold and amplified in WITW ~ which indicates to me that consistency is possible, even when offered by someone capable of making generative changes. Significantly Grinder like Epstein and James, also spent some of his own time, (in break periods), helping me through significant difficulties in my personal coding. Epstein, Gaster and Grinder were not obliged to do so ~ but as a result of those 'break time' experiences I add: 'willingness to assist over and above the training contract' as one of the criteria that would lead me to recommend a trainer. I note that John Grinder has also offered direct help to individuals both in terms of behaviour and intellectual guidance in mails on this forum. This of course is a personal quality, and not a technical requirement. Whilst it is a criteria that I use when offering an endorsement it is by no means the most important criteria and I do not confine it to trainers in NLP. Stephen Bray PS Nothing in this email should be construed as diminishing the importance of the authorship of Carmen Bostic St. Clair to the design of WITW. I do not know her, but where her contributions are dilineated I found them to be refreshing and helpful. PPS Whilst I offer training and supervision, I do not offer training or supervision in NLP, although I attempt to reference its sources as accurately as I am aware of them. PPPS John Grinder did not ask or bribe me to write these nice words about him. Anything written herein may be taken as an unsolicited testimonial and endorsement based upon no more than 72 hours of contact over a decade ago ;-)) PPPPS members of any organization, society or body of which I am a member who may read this message should be assured that I do not necessarily refer to ‘their’ society in this forum message. Nor would I wish to bring it, its membership or any discipline into disrepute. Most are quite capable of doing that for themselves, especially when they believe that they have a monopoly on 'truth', and/or 'standards'.