Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.
Posted by: Pete West
Date/Time: 04/11/2003 00:44:49

Hello nj,

"...(4) Non-humans can be intelligent without being self-aware."

I agree with proposition (4).

"...(5.2) But, only humans have self-awareness."

I disagree with proposition (5.2).  I cite the descriptions provided by both Lewis and Venus in this thread as supporting material for this view.

"Consider argument (6).

(6.1) Both non-humans and humans behave intelligently.
(6.2) Both non-humans and humans model.
(6.3) Both non-humans, and humans, have self-awareness in different degrees.
(6.4) So, torture of certain humans, humans with less self-awareness, is OK, because torturing such humans is like torturing a nonhuman."

I am in accord with propositions (6.1)-(6.3).  I disagree with conclusion (6.4).

"...(9) Torture is one of the most common actions humans, as a species, take against nonhumans. Murder, and breeding, are the other most common actions."

Recall JG’s views associated with the dubious utiliy of statistical analysis.  This ‘tendency’ might become a feed-forward filter,  having as its behavioral output the reinforcement (through behavioral presupposition) of the putated abhorrent pattern of human behavior.  I do share your sentiments, however.

"...Torture and murder are of more significance, in a nonhuman's life, than any slop the human force-fed to the nonhuman, or any strokes the nonhuman got, or any hoops the nonhuman jumped through."

This appears to be an example of crystal ball mind-reading semantic ill-formedness. I share your concern, however.

"So, do you understand that this AI discussion has some potentially nasty practical implications?..."

Yes nj, I do indeed understand that, ‘this AI discussion has some potentially nasty practical implications’.  It occurs to me that indeed every member of the set of all discussions has some potentially nasty practical implications, especially if those potentially nasty practical applications are sought out.  It seems to me that the ‘opposite’ (I use this term loosely here) case also holds.  That is the case in which, discussion (x) has some potentially  non-nasty practical implications , especially if those potentially non-nasty practical applications are sought out.

"I'll also welcome a discussion from you that addresses my need (17).

(17) I need to know, for the variety of cirumstances where such knowledge might come into play, the means to detect the difference between a non-self-aware creature that is genuinely intelligent, and a self-aware creature that only looks, to an observer, like its intelligent."

I share a similar need, to your ‘need (17)’, which I am interested in satisfying, nj.

A pleasure,
-Pete West


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 08:24:18Pete West
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:25:24Lewis Walker
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:45:24Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:55:11Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 10:06:07Lewis Walker
          the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyðics.;03/11/2003 10:23:46nj
               Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.03/11/2003 13:41:22Pete West
                    Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.03/11/2003 22:58:49nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.03/11/2003 23:16:04nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.04/11/2003 00:44:49Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.05/11/2003 00:34:09nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.05/11/2003 03:05:24Pet Waste
                                   Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 07:17:07Pete West
                                        Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 09:45:29Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues (typo)05/11/2003 11:17:05Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 00:44:00nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 02:34:02Pete West
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 22:33:07nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 00:51:02Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 02:51:53Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 08:41:40nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues09/11/2003 10:19:15Pete West
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues17/11/2003 23:15:33nj
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 13:04:40Pete West
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 19:49:44nj
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 03:04:11Pete West
                                                                                               :Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential 20/11/2003 04:20:44Ryan N
                                                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 20:55:23nj
                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 02:28:21Pete West
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 09:16:11nj
                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 13:11:56Pete West
                                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 21:29:45nj
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 12:50:47Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 13:20:26Jon Edwards
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 22:48:34Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 23:11:27nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 00:48:27Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 01:56:13Jon Edwards
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 13:59:04John Schertzer
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 14:16:02Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 22:58:43Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 15:11:28GSM
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 20:37:31John Schertzer
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:58:25Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 12:57:20GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 13:16:39Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:24:42GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:57:57Jon Edwards
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:22:14GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:45:34John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:57:40GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 18:48:04John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 19:35:52GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:05:51Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:44:14GSM
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 02:48:08Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:18:57Martin Messier
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 20:29:38John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*16/11/2003 02:57:43Martin Messier
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 16:53:25Venus Brown
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:34:01Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 01:07:01Michael Carroll
                    Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 05:17:14Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 08:35:14George
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 16:22:30George
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:54:31John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:46:35Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*09/11/2003 16:29:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 19:02:18John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 22:23:48nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 11:57:01Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 13:49:51John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:55:41Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 03:36:05George
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 09:29:08Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 08:52:42nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*14/11/2003 13:35:06Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 00:23:53Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 19:50:26John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:05:14John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 15:09:33John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 21:26:31nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:00:24John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 01:11:21Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:32:28John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:17:50Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 10:07:07John Grinder
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 12:09:27GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:53:08nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:20:58Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 20:49:23nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 23:28:31nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 17:12:28John Schertzer

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