Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*
Posted by: Ryan Nagy
Date/Time: 06/11/2003 04:46:35

John,

Thanks for your comments.

You wrote:
"…the answer to the question as to whether Washoe had broken the species language barrier depended on a-not-yet-done analysis of the structure of ASL…is there a minimum pair in ASL (as used by Washoe) in which the two phrases are distinct in meaning but composed of precisely the same set of signs differing only by their order."

Does your question imply that it is language production that is the main criterion as opposed to language comprehension? Somewhere in WITW, I remember Carmen and you being dubious of the distinction between competence and performance (as am I). The bonobo in the article-link that I posted was named Kanzi. I have a suspicion he was able to vary the order of the lexigrams he was using in order to communicate different meanings. I would need to read it again in order to get a better idea. Regardless, Kanzi was capable of responding to and differentiating multiple syntactic productions spoken in English.

He was raised in a language environment from birth. Like Washoe, he mastered the use of over 200 symbols. Kanzi could also respond appropriately to spoken English. In fact, the researchers tested Kanzi and a 2-year-old child on similar tasks. Asking them to do things like, "go get the apple" or "put the (toy) knife in the drawer" etc. Going strictly on a percentage basis, Kanzi correctly performed more actions than the child did (based on 650 sentences). The sentences and the tasks were often new - these were not things that the bonobo or child had been trained to do.

When a sentence had two actions in it, both the child and bonobo made some interesting mistakes. Take the sentence: "go outside and get an orange." Kanzi was likely to turn that into two actions. Rather, than going outside to get an orange, he would get an orange and then go outside. When the sentence was rephrased, "Go get the orange that is outside," he would perform correctly.

So what do you think? An/another example of crossing the language divide?

As I alluded to in my previous post a key distinction to me was that the researcher was treating Kanzi as a relationship partner and not as a "subject" or "object." She was trying to find ways of meeting him in his own world. Shanker and King noted:

"The most important decision that they [the researchers] made was to "abandon any and all plans of [formally] teaching Kanzi and simply to offer him an environment that maximized the opportunity for him to learn as much as possible" (Savage-Rumbaugh & Lewin 1994: 137). This decision demanded that they create new lexigrams for the most important aspects of Kanzi’s day-to-day activities: e.g. the names of foods, caregivers, other apes, locations in the forest, toys and games. No symbols were inserted solely for the purpose of ascertaining whether Kanzi could grasp some abstract concept."


Ryan



Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 08:24:18Pete West
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:25:24Lewis Walker
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:45:24Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:55:11Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 10:06:07Lewis Walker
          the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyðics.;03/11/2003 10:23:46nj
               Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyđics.03/11/2003 13:41:22Pete West
                    Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyđics.03/11/2003 22:58:49nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyđics.03/11/2003 23:16:04nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyđics.04/11/2003 00:44:49Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyđics.05/11/2003 00:34:09nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyđics.05/11/2003 03:05:24Pet Waste
                                   Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 07:17:07Pete West
                                        Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 09:45:29Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues (typo)05/11/2003 11:17:05Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 00:44:00nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 02:34:02Pete West
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 22:33:07nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 00:51:02Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 02:51:53Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 08:41:40nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues09/11/2003 10:19:15Pete West
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues17/11/2003 23:15:33nj
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 13:04:40Pete West
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 19:49:44nj
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 03:04:11Pete West
                                                                                               :Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential 20/11/2003 04:20:44Ryan N
                                                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 20:55:23nj
                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 02:28:21Pete West
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 09:16:11nj
                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 13:11:56Pete West
                                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 21:29:45nj
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 12:50:47Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 13:20:26Jon Edwards
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 22:48:34Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 23:11:27nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 00:48:27Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 01:56:13Jon Edwards
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 13:59:04John Schertzer
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 14:16:02Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 22:58:43Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 15:11:28GSM
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 20:37:31John Schertzer
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:58:25Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 12:57:20GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 13:16:39Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:24:42GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:57:57Jon Edwards
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:22:14GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:45:34John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:57:40GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 18:48:04John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 19:35:52GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:05:51Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:44:14GSM
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 02:48:08Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:18:57Martin Messier
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 20:29:38John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*16/11/2003 02:57:43Martin Messier
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 16:53:25Venus Brown
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:34:01Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 01:07:01Michael Carroll
                    Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 05:17:14Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 08:35:14George
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 16:22:30George
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:54:31John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:46:35Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*09/11/2003 16:29:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 19:02:18John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 22:23:48nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 11:57:01Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 13:49:51John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:55:41Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 03:36:05George
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 09:29:08Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 08:52:42nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*14/11/2003 13:35:06Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 00:23:53Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 19:50:26John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:05:14John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 15:09:33John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 21:26:31nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:00:24John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 01:11:21Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:32:28John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:17:50Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 10:07:07John Grinder
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 12:09:27GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:53:08nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:20:58Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 20:49:23nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 23:28:31nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 17:12:28John Schertzer

Forum Home