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Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues
Posted by: nj
Date/Time: 19/11/2003 19:49:44

Hello, Pete.

You wrote:

1.á "Yes nj, I do think that I might start to treat 'real' dogs a bit differently after a while if I were to participate in your AI experiment.á Perhaps, I would even discover myself treating these 'real' dogs even MORE ethically than I was previously.á Let us assume (just for giggles of course) that prior to my interaction with Aibo I would for example, shock my 'real' dog's testicles with a stun gun set at full jolt if it were to behave so impudently as to urinate ('god' forbid) on my persian rug.á Participation in your AI experiment provided the context to allow me to develop the behavioral choice to merely 'whip its rear with a stick;'!á Thanks for that."

Real dogs can suffer pain, and can experience psychological suffering, Pete.á Aibo dogs do not feel pain.á Participation in the AI experiment that I do not want anyone to perform, ..., will not serve the purpose you propose for it.á Consider that, after you evilly torture the nonhuman animal dog in the manner you described, the animal won't respond how the Aibo does,á when you abuse your Aibo dog, and the Aibo responds desirably.á The real dog, the nonhuman animal that you shock, will probably cower in a corner and piss (and crap) uncontrollably, or maybe curl up somewhere, shaking, refuse to eat, and die.á

In my less extreme example, a real dog would not perform the behaviors of the Aibo dog, if treated like the Aibo dog that you programmed so contrarily.á

Even if you treated the real dog well, nothing like what you might do to an Aibo dog, the animal, despite its agreeable responses, can not be claimed to WANT the life you've chosen for it.á

Ethics are not a matter of personal taste.á An ethic is not subjective, nor is it a product of your society.á An ethic has a basis in a rational argument.á

Despite your claims that you eat cheese for pleasure, I think that if I asked after your opinions of the ethics of eating cheese, you would make statements like:

2.á My consumption of cheese does not effect the interests of the animals it came from.

and

3.á My avoiding cheese, in the real world, will make no difference to what other people do.á Cows will still be factory-farmed for dairy products, whether I eat cheese or not.

You could make statements that imply different beliefs, but about very different participants.á Those statements might apply to human participants.á The stretch from nonhuman animals, to human animals, is not that far-fetched.á

Unless nonhuman animals are much, much less important, intelligent, conscious, or just human, when compared with human animals....á

You might think that:

4.á The interests of nonhuman animals are inherently less important than the interests of human animals.

You might think that:

5.á The interests of some human animals are inherently more important than the interests of other human animals.á

In some ordinary contexts, a human animal might assume propositions (4) and (5) when the human goes about weighing interests as part of its ETHICAL (not SELFISH) decision-making.

To continue this discussion, you could present a context or two in which you would ethically act on claims (4) and (5).á You might choose example contexts that don't arouse controversy, though, so that you're comfortable presenting them.á If you can think of any examples that directly relate to the practice of NLP modeling, I would like to read your examples.

-nj


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 08:24:18Pete West
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:25:24Lewis Walker
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:45:24Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:55:11Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 10:06:07Lewis Walker
          the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyðics.;03/11/2003 10:23:46nj
               Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemology­ics.03/11/2003 13:41:22Pete West
                    Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemology­ics.03/11/2003 22:58:49nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemology­ics.03/11/2003 23:16:04nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemology­ics.04/11/2003 00:44:49Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemology­ics.05/11/2003 00:34:09nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemology­ics.05/11/2003 03:05:24Pet Waste
                                   Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 07:17:07Pete West
                                        Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 09:45:29Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues (typo)05/11/2003 11:17:05Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 00:44:00nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 02:34:02Pete West
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 22:33:07nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 00:51:02Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 02:51:53Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 08:41:40nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues09/11/2003 10:19:15Pete West
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues17/11/2003 23:15:33nj
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 13:04:40Pete West
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 19:49:44nj
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 03:04:11Pete West
                                                                                               :Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential 20/11/2003 04:20:44Ryan N
                                                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 20:55:23nj
                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 02:28:21Pete West
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 09:16:11nj
                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 13:11:56Pete West
                                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 21:29:45nj
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 12:50:47Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 13:20:26Jon Edwards
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 22:48:34Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 23:11:27nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 00:48:27Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 01:56:13Jon Edwards
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 13:59:04John Schertzer
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 14:16:02Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 22:58:43Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 15:11:28GSM
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 20:37:31John Schertzer
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:58:25Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 12:57:20GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 13:16:39Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:24:42GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:57:57Jon Edwards
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:22:14GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:45:34John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:57:40GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 18:48:04John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 19:35:52GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:05:51Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:44:14GSM
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 02:48:08Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:18:57Martin Messier
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 20:29:38John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*16/11/2003 02:57:43Martin Messier
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 16:53:25Venus Brown
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:34:01Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 01:07:01Michael Carroll
                    Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 05:17:14Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 08:35:14George
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 16:22:30George
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:54:31John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:46:35Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*09/11/2003 16:29:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 19:02:18John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 22:23:48nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 11:57:01Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 13:49:51John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:55:41Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 03:36:05George
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 09:29:08Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 08:52:42nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*14/11/2003 13:35:06Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 00:23:53Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 19:50:26John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:05:14John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 15:09:33John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 21:26:31nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:00:24John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 01:11:21Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:32:28John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:17:50Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 10:07:07John Grinder
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 12:09:27GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:53:08nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:20:58Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 20:49:23nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 23:28:31nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 17:12:28John Schertzer

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