Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*
Posted by: Ryan Nagy
Date/Time: 24/11/2003 15:17:50

John -
You manage to pack a great deal into just a few sentences. As my reply will dmenstrat I am not quite there yet.

You wrote:

"Did I get it?"

I think so. I agree with your summation but would like to add some further clarifications of my thinking.

Overall, I'm not quite sure the metaphor that you used is completely isomorphic to what I am suggesting. I agree that "gravity" is nothing but a label for a certain phenomenon. Newton was able to mathematically define the effects of that phenomena with amazing precision and simplicity, showing that the force of gravity is directly proportional to the mass of each object and lessons as a square of their distance (don’t I sound intelligent when I am quoting from a book). However, what Newton achieved was a description of the effects not an explanation of the process. Even he found the whole idea of gravity to be a bit ridiculous saying that it was, "so great an absurdity that, I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it…the cause of gravity I do not pretend to know."*

It seems to me that by positing a LAD we are falling into a trap of ascribing a "cause" for language development. It also doesn't seem to have much descriptive use either. I am starting to think more and more in terms of "stable solutions" to human needs. Consider locomotion. I could engage in a number of patterns to propel myself to Santa Cruz. I could skip, jump, creep, crawl etc. However the most economical form of self-locomotion that would get me there would be walking. It is more energy efficient than the others, would stress my joints less…(etc., etc.) Given the multitude of options that a human can muster to move, walking is one of the more efficient modes so we have all learned to adopt it. It is not proscribed ahead of time that we move that way - we learn it step by step: learning rolling over…to crawl…to sit…putting it all together…applying our skills to novel terrain that we have not walked on yet. We flexibly adapt patterns to a variety of contexts

I think we will eventually be able to describe language learning in similar manner. Actually, screw the "I think" part of that last sentence. It will be done. It can't not be. We are masters at creating/finding pattern and order. Language learning may be the most beautiful and glorious example of our pattern hunting ability but it still needs to fit within what we know about pattern hunting in general.

BTW - I would be willing to jump up a level and say metaphorically that human beings ARE language acquisition devices - that could be a useful metaphor.

-  Let me know what you think -  Ryan


* Coming of Age in the Milky Way, Timothy Ferris Anchor Books 1988.

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 08:24:18Pete West
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:25:24Lewis Walker
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:45:24Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 09:55:11Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 10:06:07Lewis Walker
          the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyðics.;03/11/2003 10:23:46nj
               Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.03/11/2003 13:41:22Pete West
                    Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.03/11/2003 22:58:49nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.03/11/2003 23:16:04nj
                         Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.04/11/2003 00:44:49Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.05/11/2003 00:34:09nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:the 3rd AI debate and non-human interests. topic: epistemologyšics.05/11/2003 03:05:24Pet Waste
                                   Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 07:17:07Pete West
                                        Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues05/11/2003 09:45:29Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues (typo)05/11/2003 11:17:05Pete West
                                             Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 00:44:00nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 02:34:02Pete West
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues07/11/2003 22:33:07nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 00:51:02Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 02:51:53Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues08/11/2003 08:41:40nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues09/11/2003 10:19:15Pete West
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues17/11/2003 23:15:33nj
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 13:04:40Pete West
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues19/11/2003 19:49:44nj
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 03:04:11Pete West
                                                                                               :Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential 20/11/2003 04:20:44Ryan N
                                                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues20/11/2003 20:55:23nj
                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 02:28:21Pete West
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues21/11/2003 09:16:11nj
                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 13:11:56Pete West
                                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* sub topic: potential ethical issues25/11/2003 21:29:45nj
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 12:50:47Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 13:20:26Jon Edwards
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 22:48:34Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)03/11/2003 23:11:27nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 00:48:27Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate* (definitions continued)04/11/2003 01:56:13Jon Edwards
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 13:59:04John Schertzer
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 14:16:02Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 22:58:43Pete West
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 15:11:28GSM
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 20:37:31John Schertzer
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:58:25Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 12:57:20GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 13:16:39Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:24:42GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 14:57:57Jon Edwards
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:22:14GSM
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:45:34John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 15:57:40GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 18:48:04John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 19:35:52GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:05:51Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 23:44:14GSM
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*05/11/2003 02:48:08Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:18:57Martin Messier
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 20:29:38John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*16/11/2003 02:57:43Martin Messier
     Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 16:53:25Venus Brown
          Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*03/11/2003 22:34:01Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 01:07:01Michael Carroll
                    Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 05:17:14Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 08:35:14George
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 16:22:30George
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*04/11/2003 17:54:31John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:46:35Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*09/11/2003 16:29:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 19:02:18John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*07/11/2003 22:23:48nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 11:57:01Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*02/12/2003 13:49:51John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*06/11/2003 04:55:41Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 03:36:05George
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 09:29:08Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*08/11/2003 08:52:42nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*14/11/2003 13:35:06Jon Edwards
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 00:23:53Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*19/11/2003 19:50:26John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:05:14John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 15:09:33John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 21:26:31nj
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*20/11/2003 10:00:24John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 01:11:21Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:32:28John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:17:50Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 10:07:07John Grinder
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 12:09:27GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 08:53:08nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*24/11/2003 15:20:58Ryan Nagy
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 20:49:23nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*25/11/2003 23:28:31nj
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Epistemology: f1, f2 and the 3rd AI debate*21/11/2003 17:12:28John Schertzer

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