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Topic: Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp
Posted by: Martin Messier
Date/Time: 29/03/2005 18:45:11

Hey Ryan,

Exciting email! You asked: "did something change physically in order for you to not move your eyes?"

Funny... What stopped was my eye movement. :) I just stopped/froze them.

You wrote: "--I'm still not comfortable with the assumption of a mind - does not your quote above assume a split?"

To me, the split is similar to the split you find between software and hardware in computing. It's a virtual split, because everything that we call "software" runs on a hardware platform. Every software change is reflected in electrical signals in the machine. And yet, we differentiate between hardware and software. Can't find one without the other, and yet we intuit that there's a distinction. It's like two sides of the same coin.

Same thing with mind and body. Mental shifts always have their physical counterpart. They go hand in hand. And there's something non-physical that commands those shifts, whether physical or mental. After watching Ken Wilber shut down his brain waves while hooked up to an EEG, it becomes obvious that there's something non-physiological that runs the show.

I once asked a friend of mine who works in computing what the difference is between hardware and software and what their relationship is. He gave me the most brilliant reply I've ever found. "Software aligns the hardware." And that's pretty much the best definition of mind that I can find, especially after re-reading Reframing and Frogs Into Princes. If parts/programs/whatever can conflict and generate cancer, there's some sort of software running the body. You can make a computer explode/crash by running specific software that overclocks your processor. Yes, the software is moving the computer's "physiology," but that "physiology" is not fully in charge. At the same time, the hardware limits/binds the possibilities of the software (as anyone who still operates a Pentium 233 computer can attest). So the relationship is intricate as heck.

That's why I find Ken's model so useful. Every holon has an interior and exterior, and you can't separate one from the other. You can differentiate/distinguish them, but you need to integrate them to understand the system.

As you type, think about this... You touch letters on your keyboard. Unbeknowst to the uninformed, those letters mean absolutely nothing to the machine. Under your key is an electrical transmittor that sends an electrical signal to the CPU, which in turn sends a signal to the screen, commanding it to light up a few pixels that your brain assembles to represent the letter you typed.

Were you to look at the bits of electricity that actually make out this message, you'd never make out a meaningful message (unless of course, your "mind" knows how to convert those bits back into letters).

In the same way, a shower of dopamine and a few electrical shocks and muscular contractions without the "mind's" interpretation engine will never have the meaning and effect that the representation of your loved one carries.

Physiology by itself carries no meaning. Meaning is assembled by the mind. You can do syntax with physiology but not semantics. The mind, meaning and semantics are damn hard to control and very challenging to model. Physiology is essential to reaching meaning, it's an essential facet of every part of our mental experience, it's the support that carries the elements out of which meaning is assembled, but it will never be able to account for meaning by itself (or so is my conviction -- supply me with a counterexample should you have one).

Now, should you challenge the need for meaning in our lives, I agree with you that mind is a useless and probably annoying creation that we well could do without.

With all that said, I'd love to hear more about your epistemology of the conscious and unconscious minds since mind doesn't exist. Would you be so kind to indulge me?

You're awesome, Ryan. Being challenged to think by intelligent queries... Rare treat!


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Descartes' original sin21/03/2005 08:46:21Keith
     Re:Descartes' original sin21/03/2005 14:48:23John Grinder
          Re:Re:Descartes' original sin22/03/2005 07:18:35Keith
               Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin23/03/2005 02:00:44John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin23/03/2005 14:46:14John Schertzer
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin24/03/2005 04:07:04John Grinder
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin24/03/2005 15:04:20John Schertzer
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin24/03/2005 22:42:59nj
                                   Re:Re:Descartes' original sin27/03/2005 05:36:03Ryan Nagy
                                        Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin28/03/2005 16:50:22Martin Messier
                                        Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin28/03/2005 16:52:08John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 05:51:35Ryan Nagy
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 18:19:03John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 05:52:00Ryan Nagy
                                                  I forgot to mention...29/03/2005 06:35:51Ryan Nagy
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 11:04:16Martin Messier
                                                       :Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 15:29:55Ryan Nagy
                                                            Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 18:45:11Martin Messier
                                                                 Re:Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp01/04/2005 07:41:59James Tsakalos
                                                                      Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp04/04/2005 17:56:30Martin Messier
                                                            Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp29/03/2005 19:46:20John Schertzer
                                                                 Re:Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp14/04/2005 21:13:46Tom
                                                            Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp30/03/2005 21:34:39nj
                                                            Re::Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp31/03/2005 15:17:21John Schertzer
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes.../Shortr Exp01/04/2005 19:15:45GSM
                                        Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin27/03/2005 08:46:49John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f201/04/2005 17:26:31GSM
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f201/04/2005 21:35:00John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f201/04/2005 22:16:21GSM
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f205/04/2005 18:52:39John Schertzer
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f207/04/2005 10:44:42John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f207/04/2005 13:41:47A
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f208/04/2005 12:08:18John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f208/04/2005 12:37:41A
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f207/04/2005 19:14:05John Schertzer
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f207/04/2005 22:00:47nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f215/04/2005 11:48:26nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f215/04/2005 21:40:01John Schertzer
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Descartes' original sin - f1/f223/04/2005 11:11:36njs
                                                                           body control and therapy28/04/2005 11:23:59njs

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