To John Grinder, John on a previous thread on this heated discussion about Triple description I had asked a question about where you calculated where unconscious assimilation took place in regards to your model called Triple description. I now recall in your post on 9/17 you had said simply and accurately second position. New question for you John. When you were researching in person and and modeling Milton in Phoneix with RB when did you John reach your first GROK or the AHA state?!. Also John what perceptual position(s) would you calculate was very useful in finding your decription of Miltons model of his world and patterns? My conscious assumptions based on your previous reply here is telling me if John had built his triple description model 15 years ago when he connected with Milton he used other tools and models thirty years ago as they were pre-triple description days...So what was Johns tools 30 years ago? How has he evolved his tools the last thrty years compared to that first Milton meeting? Where are you now John and where are you headed? Please note: It seems to me John based on your feedback to me previously in our other discussions a high point for John in modeling Milton was your use of the unconscious assimilation phase and of course that was starting with your famous first phone call to Milton yet this communication did not take place in third position which skill seems to be receiving tons of attention here and in other sites held in such high regards as in  Michael Halls work(meta-states) and obviously within a few others minds on this web site. I think your natural meta_state or state of mind with your Milton experience just followed your natural curiosity, enthusiasm and excitement to find out what this mysterious man Milton used in his therapy sessions....H'mmm..! Are my thoughts above in line with your experience and representations of what occured when you connected with Milton at first and latter on and if not John how so and if so John how specifically? Have a great evening John and and thanks for your sincerity and patience here with all of us! kc