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Topic: Re:Re:Modelling vs Design
Posted by: John Grinder
Date/Time: 30/01/2003 17:39:15

Hi Lewis, RobMan

Lewis - thanks for the clarification about "warts". Another example of local linguistic knowledge. I will assume that you have read the procedure for positioning a filter at the unconscious level to protect against warts - now know as the anti-wart procedure.


You wrote,

"I agree that not ALL design has such an explicit criterion...yet some MAY."

Could we have an example, please?

2. You also wrote,

"...are you suggesting we should only limit ourselves to behaviour and patterns that already exist?"

In this thread on the 29th of January, I proposed,

"Lewis - let us agree that there are many useful ways to develop patterning and to learn. Obviously, our focus has been on modeling as Carmen and I define it in Whispering. We are NOT saying that this methodolgy is EXCLUSIVELY the royal road to patterning and learning, only that it offers a set of choices not previously exploited in any systematic explicit way."

3. You wrote,

"Are you binding design explicitly to f2?  Isn't the new-code process of 6 step reframing that your unconscious mind so eloquently wrote on the blackboard an example of unconscious design (specifically step 4)?  This defnly isn't modelling...yet I think this step (and the way the process was created) is an excellent example of design that's largely free of f2 filters...until it is expressed of course"

Very interesting point: the issue is well worth pursuing. It is difficult for me to imagine anything associated with modeling or distinctly design work that does not have deep unconscious elements (free of f2). In your posting you say, " that's largely free of f2 filters". Yeah, I agree that it is useful to at least note the relative contributions of the unconscious and conscious processes. The production of the 6 step reframing pattern you characterized correctly as a primarily in unconscious production, although the tools we have at present are too blunt for a fine resolution. This is part of the point of the strict separation in the 5 phase modeling model in Whispering.

4. You wrote,

"When I perform design (in a number of different fields) I often just absorb a range of related input...then forget about it for a while until my unconscious mind let's me know I'm ready to dump some ideas.  I defnly don't think this is modelling...but it's also not necessarily limited to f2 either"

Well done! This example is parallel to the mathematics one offered on pages 365 and 366.

All the best,


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Modeling how to's??28/01/2003 19:45:22Jim R
     Re:Modeling how to's??28/01/2003 21:58:23Lewis Walker
          Re:Re:Modeling and self concept29/01/2003 02:42:40ernest
          Re:Re:Modeling how to's??29/01/2003 18:09:05John Grinder
               Re:Re:Re:Modeling how to's??29/01/2003 19:42:47Jim R
               Re:Re:Re:Modeling how to's??29/01/2003 20:56:17Lewis Walker
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Modeling how to's??29/01/2003 22:29:49John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Modeling how to's??29/01/2003 23:08:14Lewis Walker
                         Re:Modelling vs Design30/01/2003 00:51:56Rob Manson
                              Re:Re:Modelling vs Design30/01/2003 17:39:15John Grinder
                                   Re: Exemplar example etc...31/01/2003 13:12:54Rob Manson
                                        Re:Re: Exemplar example etc...31/01/2003 18:36:50John Grinder

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