Hey JG, Thanks for responding to my questions... 1. You wrote: "Could we have an example, please?" So I went back and double checked your defn to see how much I had misinterpreted it 8) Your previous post included: "Modeling distinguishes itself immediately from design in that there is an explicit criterion: namely, does the behavior of the person who learns the patterning (the model resulting from the modeling project) move significantly closer in effectiveness, time... to the exemplar (the person who served as the original inspiration for the project). In design, no such explicit criterion is obvious." To simplify things a little I took this to be "do people who learn the new pattern move significantly closer in (insert pattern specific criteria here) to the exemplar?" I intentionally deleted "(the person who served as the original inspiration for the project)" because this appears to me to be one of the key distinctions of modelling as opposed to design...please correct me I've misintepreted this 8) If we can agree that the exemplar can be either a model or an abstract design goal...then design exemplar examples abound...(and in my experience of design in other fields are usually defined in a "requirements gathering" phase)...here's a rough one... Abstract design goal (design exemplar): Design a pattern that "enables the user to easily and quickly develop and recursively test effective strategies for accessing their chosen models until they achieve that goal - e.g. Modelling Phase 1". It seems to me that this is sorta what your Erickson example was...as you didn't actually have access to the real model...so you used a collection of externally expressed f2 based models of his work to design a useful Phase 1 strategy...and it worked... While this is obviously a "tongue in cheek" example 8) I also think it's seriously relevant because many people who read and accept your modelling model in Whispering may struggle with gaining access to their chosen model.  For example I may want to model how Bill Gates has repeatedly been able to build apps that create world wide monopolies, but I doubt I'll be able to easily gain the required level of access to this specific model.  I agree that the design example above could equally be developed by modelling a modeller who has demonstrated success in this phase...but I think you'll agree that they are relatively rare and an abstract design goal could at least provide a recursive and self developing momentum.  Not necessarily as effective...but not necessarily NOT as effective either 8) (based on my presupposition of the potential of unconscious genius). 2. You wrote: "In this thread on the 29th of January, I proposed, ... We are NOT saying that this methodolgy is EXCLUSIVELY the royal road to patterning and learning, only that it offers a set of choices not previously exploited in any systematic explicit way." You're right...you did...and it does...oops 8) 3. You wrote: "It is difficult for me to imagine anything associated with modeling or distinctly design work that does not have deep unconscious elements (free of f2)." My unconscious mind was just complaining about what I interpreted as "the credit for the majority of design work being allocated to the conscious mind". You also wrote: "...although the tools we have at present are too blunt for a fine resolution. This is part of the point of the strict separation in the 5 phase modeling model in Whispering." Thanks...I find that comment very useful. 4. You wrote: "Well done! This example is parallel to the mathematics one offered on pages 365 and 366." Thanks...and the quote at the top of 365 about the contrast between classic and new code shows that in many ways my points about the unconscious are just me trying to teach my grandma to suck eggs 8) I'm left wondering if your focus on modelling is simply one of your useful pedagogical distortions and if the Phase 2/3 loop is really the heart of most design... roBman