Forum Message

Topic: NLP Modeling
Posted by: wild savage
Date/Time: 27/05/2003 19:25:17

Thanks Dr. Grinder,

I really appreciate your suggestions! ;-)

First off here's what I'm gonna do I will while I am in my models precense, I will vary how I focus my vison.

Now with regard to using micro muscle movements in their prescense, am I correct in assuming one would match breathing, body posture, how about gestures, and analogue markings?  That's what your refering to right?  I've actually seen people use analogue markings with out even knowing's kind of they mark things out.

"3.) And then I go from there. I try to identify the pattern without judgement or at least what I think it is that I am feeling."

There is an important distinction here for me that is not apparent in what you write - namely, evaluation is a certain logical type of f2 mapping - however, only one type. All interpretation, for example, is a f2 mapping. Thus any attempt to understand what is happening as you observe (and hopefully, micro muscle mirror the model) the model is to be suspended, as such attempt violate the suspend all f2 mappings with the attendant decrease in quality of the resultant model as argued in Whispering by Carmen and me."

I'm not sure I follow you here. 

"Thus any attempt to understand what is happening as you observe (and hopefully, micro muscle mirror the model) the model is to be suspended..."

What about after the fact?  At what point after the assimilation of my models patterns into me can I start to pull out what they do.  And how do I do that?

Dr. Grinder how would I know if I had suspended my f2 filters? 
And how would I know if I hadn't?

My thinking is I will know that I have suspended my f2 filters when I am completely there in the moment, no internal Dialogue, just there experiencing the moment, full FA.

And I think that I wouldn't have suspended my filters when I'd be in my head going, "well first it seems shes doing this, now she's doing this, now she's doing this, etc..." 

Is this along the lines of what your getting at?

So for example here I am learning to dance.  (ironically enough though I currently I am learning to dance.)

I'm standing in the studio with them in front of the mirrior.  I'm facing the same direction and completely (as much as I can) mirroring their body movements.  I'm visually checking that my body is positioned the same as theirs, and kinestically I am checking to see if I feel like I'm matching how they feel. (what I mean by this is how their body feel to be in a certian position.)

Once I've done enough repetitions/classes to notice a pattern emerging how do I go about mapping out what is going on so that I may start the testing and subtraction phase, so that I may arrive at the necessary and sufficients portions of their experience to replicate their ability to dance.

"4. Then I do it consciously to see if i'm right and am achieving some what similiar results if i'm not than I drop what ever It was that I thought was the pattern and feel for the next one.
And I do that one by one until I complete the model.  Once I have a cluster of patterns then I begin the process of subtraction, I begin doing all of the patterns and then I begin leaving one out to see if there is a difference if there is not I leave that particular pattern out if there is I leave that particular pattern in.  And I continue to do that until I have the handful of patterns that make up my model.
The danger here is that there are patterns that are effective only in the context of other patterns (nested patterning) - testing them one at a time will likely yield examples where the deployment of one of the patterns (coded as X) is unsuccessful whereas if that same pattern (coded as X) were deployed in the context of some additional pattern, Y, say, it would function perfectly. This would be an example of nested patterning with X nested inside of Y."

What would be an example of a nested pattern?

Now I have a silly question Dr. Grinder.

When you personally model someone do you ask them questions?  And what type of questions do you ask them?

I've read Modeling with NLP By Robert Dilts, I've listened to Modelling with NLP By David Gordon, I've read in WITW about modeling and I've even gone back to reading Frogs into Princes to read about your and Bandlers modeling strategies.

All were good resources, no doubt about it.  Roberts Approach wasn't for me, I just couldn't put it together, too analytical for me, maybe you have to be there in person at a seminar to get what he's saying, I just couldn't gleam it from his book.  David's Tapes were very good as well, though my Criticism is that I felt it relied too much on what people said they did and not enough on actually having them do what they do and observing.  Plus when I go out to model I don't run around with catergories in my head waiting to places stuff there, at least consciously I don't.  To his credit though on his tapes he does mention his particular modelling method will not be suitable for modelling words not his.  My question to myself during listening and studying his tapes were "how would I map analogue marking using his experiental array?", How would I have modeled Erickson using his experiental would have probably have taken a really long time...

As I was reading Frogs, either yourself or Richard I can't really make the distinction who would say things like when you used to model therapists you'd ask them things like, "What they were trying to accomplish by doing X?"  Or "What where they after by doing Y?"

At any point did/do you try to elicit belief/values?

Do/Did you ask about what state they were in when they performed X?

Or how about in what order they do/did behavior Y?


Thanks a million,



I can't wait to read your response to Steve Andreas, you seem to have the ability to provide larger frames around seemingly contradictory statements.  So in other words I'm waiting with baited breath to learn something new.

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
NLP Modeling Videos14/05/2003 19:20:11wild savage
     Re:NLP Modeling Videos15/05/2003 00:11:57distance
          Re:Re:NLP Modeling Videos15/05/2003 18:02:15John Grinder
               Re:Re:Re:NLP Modeling Videos15/05/2003 21:13:50Distance
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP Modeling Videos16/05/2003 14:35:16John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP Modeling Videos17/05/2003 16:04:43Distance
     NLP Modeling22/05/2003 23:49:51wild savage
          Re:NLP Modeling23/05/2003 18:20:10John Grinder
               NLP Modeling23/05/2003
                    Re:NLP Modeling23/05/2003
                         Re:Re:NLP Modeling27/05/2003 17:22:18John Grinder
                              NLP Modeling27/05/2003 19:25:17wild savage
                                   Re:NLP Modeling28/05/2003 16:20:29John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:NLP Modeling29/05/2003 16:34:53wild savage
               When, how long, which part?05/06/2003 20:33:10Thomas

Forum Home