Martin, Prior to the NLP project with the US marksman team Milton Erickson consulted for them. There's a reference in: Rossi E. (ed.) (1980) Indirect Approaches to Symptom Resolution, The Collected Papers of Milton H Erickson Vol. IV. New York: Irvington p 97. But I agree that, (as described); it does not meet the criteria outlined by John in WITW. John, I seem to recall, that in 1988 when you presented 'Prerequisites of Personal Genius in London' that you referred to a modelling project involving commodity traders, music and using 'the strategy of a hunter'. Is that material confidential, (that is restricted by any contract between you and the agency commissioning the project)? And if not are you willing to discuss it either here, or perhaps within a detailed exposition in future books, workshops or publications, or at the very least offer it, by way of example, to Martin? Your comments about just this topic in that workshop completely changed my patterns concerning the relationship between effort and productivity, even though I continue to have no interest in commodity trading. Stephen