Keith: “Is competition at a higher logical level to co-operation or are they at the same logical level?” Charlie: “That is indeed an interesting question! Of course it is going to depend on what the organising principle is for the hierarchy which contains "competition" and "cooperation". Eman: “And are they both on the same logical levels or are they the same logial types. And what does that do for competition and does it have to be against cooperation. Where did the subjective bias and others values sneak in here?” Michael: Let’s take an example to play with and explore how collaboration and competition might work in a system at different levels inherent in the system. We have a set of suppliers selling video mobile phones, consisting of companies X, Y, Z; At this level the companies are collaborating in educating the market place about this form of communication. They are collaborating in promoting video mobile communication against other forms of communication. Their competition is the set of companies who promote alternative ways to connect. If company X’s market awareness campaign is successful. Companies Y and Z will benefit. The organising principle at this level is market awareness for video mobile phones. Note the members are collaborating to compete. Down a logical level you have the individual companies, X, Y and Z as sub sets. These subsets are on the same logical level and type. If we focus on set X, the members are different sales regions within the company. Collectively all the regions of company X are collaborating in competing against company Y and Z for market share.(In the competition between X,Y, and Z the survival of the fittest determines the winner) Note the members of set X (regions) of  are collaborating to compete against the total performance of set Y and Z. Now at lower level, set X is divided into 4 regions, at this level the regions are sub sets of the set described in above paragraph. We have region A, B., C and D. The members of set A are the sales people selling the product, the same for B, C and D. The members of set A are collaborating together in their competion against B, C,D. The motive (organising principle) of the collaboration of the members of set A is to be the best region. Down a level we now have the individuals within team A, these are competing against each other for the number one spot in the team. There is a pattern. So is collaboration or competition of a higher logical level? Michael Carroll Note in Whispering, John and Carmen describe two types of hierarchies 1. Logical Levels; determined by scope and constriction, meaning the lower sets have a less members than the higher sets 2. Iconic: Whole to parts, meaning the lower sets are parts of the higher sets and can have more members i.e. nuts are part of the car, and there are more nuts. My hierarchy includes iconic sorting as well as constriction sorting.  My purpose is demonstrating examples of competition and collaboration at play in systems.