Hi John and Carmen, Congratulations on a great book! I haven't been able to put it down for days! And thank you both for providing a thorough description of the modeling processes used to model Milton, Perls and Satir. You have stired a lot of questions and ideas in me. And I will present these to you when I get the time. But for now, I have a couple of questions: 1. The Know-Nothing State: This is a state where what is not known? The reason I'm asking is that the term 'know-nothing state' is very vague as you well know. It could refer to a state so poweful that one doesn't even understand (or recognise) his or her own language. It could refer to a state characterised by total amnesia for personal identity. Or it might not be quite as extreme. Could you kindly specify what the kind of know-nothing state, you believe, is best for modeling, please? At are there different types of this state at differnt periods of the modeling process? It seems that a know-nothing state, by definition, is more than a suspension of F2 filters. Simply suspending F2 filters is what you refer to as 'stopping the world' in Turtles, isn't it? 2. Also, if I am correct in my understanding of your f1-FA-f2 model, it seems that you have only concerned yourself (at least in Whispering) with linguistic transforms at F2. But if I understand your model, transforms post FA can (and often do) occur in ALL rep systems (not just language). For example, as you no doubt know, one of the characteristics of high-performance states is that people report that the world looks and/or sounds different to them. Eg: I worked with a very good cricket player a while ago. He reported to me that the ball actually looked bigger and 'redder' when he was batting well vs when he was 'stuggling'. This, to me, represents a transform post FA... considering that all transforms pre FA are neurological (receptor-->signal pathway level) In other words, my clients representational process was: F1 --> FA --> F2 (Visual transforms at a minimum) --> F2 (linguistic) (telling me about it) What I'm saying here is: there seem to me to be a whole class of transforms not talked about in Whispering. Namely VAK transforms. Am I right, or am I confused. Or both? :) Thanks again John, Carmen, for a fantastic book! Keep up the great work, Michael Norman P.S. Do you know what happened to Frank Pucelik? And why isn't he another co-creator of NLP? Did he not partake in any of the explicit creation of the meta-model?