Hello Ed, I was at the pattern hunter to (as well as the New Code seminar preceeding it) and I am very glad that I was, so I thought I wanted to offer a couple of comments to your post. I find your description of the exercize extremely different from my perception. I mean, I have been confronted with few exercises which combine so many elements in an experiental fashion: pattern detection, a set of instructions which tend to reduce internal dialogue significantly, rapport, an experience of figuring out your own contribution to a loop in which you are playing a part. But perhaps the most important part would be that the exercise may well be seen as merely a blueprint for creating just this kind of exercises with the help of the design variables given. So to the commited and disciplined practitioner this exercise was a godsend. To you the application part of the day seemed to be an afterthought. I do not have any more access to John's and Carmen's thoughts than you do, I can only say that I absolutely believe that the last part of the day would had been dedicated to applications even if the gentleman who referred to himself as an NLP-virgin :-) had not said anything. And I think it was very good that most of the day were spent on learning how to detect patterns. - Of what use is knowing what to do with something if you are not able to find it? And utilizing a pattern appears, to me, easier than finding it. The "NLP-virgin" seemed to be quite ok with the development of the day as it proceeded. I must admit that I would have liked it if you had voiced your concerns - because I am curious as to how John and or Carmen would have responded. I would have wanted to have a place in the front row, just like those who did, until I read your words and understood that that would had made me into "a person who seeks favor by flattering people of wealth or influence; a parasite; a toady" (I had to look up the definition for that word you used - sycophant). I suppose the classical metamodel question to ask yourself would be the M.R. question: How do you know what those people were thinking? I think I should also add that I to can at times feel a slight frustration that there is not more "cutting edge" material - but I find quality and the opportunity to learn what I have not yet mastered more important. To me it also appears to be a bit tricky with experiental learning; namely that some people are not conscious of the fact that they are indeed learning. All the best Thomas