Forum Message

Topic: Please, correct me if I am wrong.
Posted by: propman
Date/Time: 13/11/2002 23:10:28

Michael C.,Dr. Grinder, Ms. St. Clair,

  Now i've been thinking about this whole "provide me with a sensory based description" thing...and for the last past few days i've unconsciously racking my brain in regard to this.  Doesn't seem like an unreasonable request at all. Your just asking for a sensory based description.  Well, i'm thinking that in my opinion one can not provide a satisfactory sensory based description...drum roll please... because there isn't one. 

   For example someone earlier in the thread posted,  "If a person claims to be feeling or experiencing state X, and a practitioner asks this person "How do you feel ABOUT feeling state X?"  The answer - is a meta-state."  For example, right now I am feeling curious.  If I ask myself how I feel about feeling curious - my answer is that I feel satisfied that I feel curious."

   That's a good example.  And something I thought of but it's not a Meta-State...of at least in my opinion its more of an kinda like it is and it isn't.  Remember were talking Semantics here!

   Also earlier written by someone,

     "To summarize, if I have a phobia of bees then:

1) When I hear or see a bee or bees my heart rate increases, my hands sweat, my vision blurs and I lose my sense of balance, which is a reaction to my internal representations of a revivified past memory, which I am associated to.  This is a primary state.

2) When I dissociate from that memory, I am creating a different set of representations, in which I am seeing myself react in the above state.  This decreases my perspiration and my heart rate, etc..  You might call this a third position move, but Michael calls it a Meta level move, because the representations he argues are "about" the previous state: a meta state."

   In my opinion that's not a Meta-State, it's an application of a Meta-State.

   Get it? Meta means in my experience something to the effect of, "Of, About, Above, Beyond"

   For example you can not access a state of Meta using the standard state of elicitions of you know... Remember a time when you were really meta...Imagine a time when you were really meta... well I suppose you could but you'd have to do it in sensory based terms which would in that scenerio would be a misnomer.  It's kinda like proving that hypnosis exists, you can't do it because the term Hypnosis is a misnomer.  Once a Meta-State is presented in sensory based terms it is no longer a Meta-State per se.  It's now something else.  (This is just my thinking out loud.) A Meta-State is a Conceptual State, an Abstraction...I think this is why Hall considers it the next step in NLP...You see NLP is all about being Sensory Based...representing things in sensory based terms, Meta-States is about adding abstraction to NLP...when something is abstract it can not be sensory based at the same's one or the other...(you can challenge that statement with Michael's either-or Meta-Model distinction or understand that this type of thinking, I think is part of why some consider MS apart of NLP and why some don't, either-or.)  Get it? Michael I feel was Adding Abstraction to NLP so now we have Abstraction and Sensory Based both sides of the coin.  I think what this debate boils down to is: Is NLP just Sensory Based? or Is NLP Sensory Based and Abstract?  make sense?  I think the point can be debated either way! Depends if we stick to just NLP is only sensory based as a criteria.  If that's the case than NO MS is not apart of's NS it may share some of NLP's roots and draw from it but it's not NLP.  If NLP encompasses both the levels of abstraction and Sensory based referents then yes MS is apart of NLP.  Depends on how you want to think about wrong or right way...I onced watched a T.V. and one of the characters on the show was talking to one of my personal heros and said, "People are going to believe what they want to believe, I know what I do."

I'd actually like to get on last thing out before I end this post and ask for feedback, comments, flames...I've noticed some people referring to the term Meta as being Disassociated and even perhaps non-feeling...This just is not my experience by the way non-feeling is a feeling... Meta doesn't always mean I can't think of anybody on this site specifically or any where else for that matter that thinks this way...and you are entitled to your opinion if you think this but I have noticed it some where, I heard it some maybe through grapevine...(with the california raisins, oh yeah!)...People can be Meta to something and still be associated... It's like if I watch two people in a dialogue and I stand to the side and observe, I can still be Meta and notice what's going on and still be in my body... (noticing how I feel, perhaps curious about what's going on)...though I suppose it maybe argued that I am Disassociated from the scenerio...again we get into the wonderful world of Semantics where any thing can mean just about any thing...

My definition of a Meta-State is, or better yet this is how I draw the distinction...

Primary State --> About something out in the world!

Meta-State --> About something in your mind!

Okay now, please feel free, question me, offer feedback, comments, and i'll even accept a few flames as well just for good is my disclaimer though I am not an expert in NLP, I just practice what I conceive it is...I'm not an expert in NS or if you want to just dismiss this whole article because I am not a expert please feel free to...I welcome the opportunity to play around with these ideas!  I remember Gregory Bateson once said something to the effect of, "Wisdom is when two people openly discussing one's differences without the intent to change the other."  So with that in mind...I welcome your responses.

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Meta-States in 17/10/2002 19:03:25L. Michael Hall, Ph.D.
     Re:Meta-States in 18/10/2002 02:22:33The Other Side of Summer
          Re:Re:Meta-States in 11/11/2002 15:40:25Jurek
     Re: Correct me if I am wrong..18/10/2002 17:43:16Tone
          Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..18/10/2002 23:55:08sammy
          Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..18/10/2002 23:57:10sammy
          Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..18/10/2002 23:57:27sammy
               Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..20/10/2002 21:49:10Stephen
                    Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..23/10/2002 13:55:19Caefu
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..23/10/2002 16:20:13Tag
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..23/10/2002 17:20:56Caefu
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..31/10/2002 14:27:12Loiusea Marnie
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..04/11/2002 23:52:34thepropagandist
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Correct me if I am right or wrong..05/11/2002 12:15:20John Grinder
                                                  Please, correct me if I am wrong.06/11/2002 08:56:00propman
                                                       Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.08/11/2002 15:26:54Hello Propman
                                                            Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.08/11/2002 19:27:46Caefu
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.09/11/2002 01:56:48Michael Carroll
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.09/11/2002 18:17:11Dr Peter Davies
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.10/11/2002 00:20:31Michael Carroll
                                                                                Where and how I see meta states fitting in.12/11/2002 22:15:41Peter Davies
                                                                                     Re:Where and how I see meta states fitting in.13/11/2002 00:21:25thepropagandist
                                                                                          Re:Re:Where and how I see meta states fitting in.13/11/2002 00:22:22thepropagandist
                                                                                     To Peter Davies13/11/2002 03:28:32Michael Carrol
                                                                                     Re:Where and how I see meta states fitting in.13/11/2002 13:38:38Jon Edwards
                                                                                Please, correct me if I am wrong.13/11/2002 23:10:28propman
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re Re:Please, Just another whisper10/11/2002 00:46:04mel
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re Re:Please, Just another whisper11/11/2002 07:37:56Peter Davies
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.11/11/2002 15:10:06Caefu
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.11/11/2002 15:51:42Caefu
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Please, correct me if I am wrong.21/01/2003 21:02:33Michael Worthington
                                                                 Re:Re:Re: A meta whisper09/11/2002 21:38:20Robert Holzhauser
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re: A meta whisper10/11/2002 10:11:53Robert
                                                                           Re:Re Re:Re:Re:Re: A meta whisper10/11/2002 10:22:06bert
                                                                                Re:Re:Re Re:Re:Re:Re: A meta whisper12/11/2002 07:50:31Robert
                                                             correct me if I am wrong.14/01/2003 12:26:49JT

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