Wolfgang My point was that there are no "proper" presuppositions/beliefs - in the sense that all of them have the consequence of reducing experience. Now, it seems to me that there is an impeccable epistemological strategy available - namely, the way that training is conducted by the trainer with respect to the perceptual position of the learner - on pages 355-356 in Whispering, we comment, "...the basis of effective training is the creation by the trainer of a series of contexts in which through experience the student may arrive at his own direct tacit knowledge of the patterning. In other words, the measure of effective training is whether the student can do it, never whether he can talk about it." and "...that the ideal design of training inherently involves discovery processes by which the student achieves unconscious (tacit) competency prior to achieving explicit verbal competency. A pattern discovered belongs to the discoverer; a pattern presented belongs to the presenter." I suppose that ultimately, we are speaking here once again of epistemology - I am certain that there are aspects of NLP patterning presently proposed that are, at best, poorly coded - if the learner is induced into this enterprise with presuppositions that reduce their experience (by definition) then how will corrective actions and refinements come to the patterning? Clearly, Carmen and I have taken the position that if presuppositions are dispensed with, then the fresh perspectives of new participants will result in a self-correcting and self-refining process for NLP itself. All the best, John