Forum Message

Topic: Re:A Simple Question?
Posted by: Stephen Bray
Date/Time: 30/09/2003 07:24:29

Dear Inner-Calm,

Your question is not just simple but noble, deep and concise. But of course it is presented devoid of context. Aside from challenging the universal quantifier 'all'; in which good practice demands that we look for counter-examples i.e. 'are there ever times when content is not metaphorical', my take on this is as follows:

"Every word which we use has a meaning to us, which guides us in our use of it. The more common the word, the more associations we have with it, and the more deeply rooted is its meaning. Therefore, when someone gives a definition for a common word in the hopes that we will abide by that definition, it is a foregone conclusion that we will not do so but will instead be guided, largely unconsciously, by what our minds find in their associative stores. I mention this because it is exactly the sort of problem that Euclid created in his Elements, by attempting to give definitions to ordinary common words such as 'point', ''straight line', 'circle' and so forth. How can you define something for which someone has a clear concept?" (Hofstadter, 1979 p. 90)

"It's important to understand that the word "imaginary" in imaginary time doesn't refer to imagination: it refers to a very ancient idea in mathematics, namely imaginary numbers, such as the square root of -1." (Kip Thorne in Hawking 1992.)

But what Thorne misses is that mathematics is itself within the private domain of imagination. It is comprehensible solely to a specialist trained in its rules, and conducted symbolically in the mind. The glyphs and symbols simply being code that mathematicians use to communicate with one and other. These are of course precisely defined in the ways suggested by Euclid.

In this sense 'imaginary time', means what it says.

In WITW Carmen and John draw attention to the idea that mathematical definitions, and those of formal logic are derived from the inherent logic in natural language:

"We remind the reader that we use the term derivative in two senses: in the historical sense that we are proposing that the first component of the human nervous system developed that has been modeled as finite recursive rule system is the syntax of natural language. The second sense is that formal systems such as logic still retain obvious connections with natural language as do the most fundamental branches of mathematics - arithmetic for example."  (Bostic and Grinder 2001 p 310)

This leads me to conclude that whilst not all content IS metaphorical, (unless we are addressing your question from that ultimate Set that includes all other Sets, in which when a violent partner strikes you cruelly, or you find yourself nailed to some other cross it's all an illusion and really you dwell in heaven as an angel), all content is represented in terms of what you have been taught either within your immediate family and community, or within your profession. But those forms are circumscribed by the inherent ways in which language operates in human beings, which is of course defined by neurology, (unless one is examining the question from the level of the Set of all Sets).

Or, if you prefer? Content is probably NOT always metaphorical, but where and how you probe will determine what you experience. And almost ALWAYS content is NOT reality in the same way that Euclid's symbols do not fully represent the world as it is.

I hope this helps???

Love and blessings,

Stephen

Bostic, Carmen StClair; and Grinder, John. (2001) Whispering in the Wind. Scotts Valley: J&C; Enterprises
Stephen Hawking Ed., with Gene Stone. (1992) A Brief History of Time Reader's Companion. London :Bantam
Hofstadter, D. (1979) Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid. Harmonsdworth: Penguin



Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
A Simple Question?30/09/2003 03:18:42InnerCalm
     Re:A Simple Question?30/09/2003 07:24:29Stephen Bray
          Re:Re:A Simple Question?30/09/2003 18:25:57InnerCalm
     Re: A Simple Question?30/09/2003 17:39:02Ryan Nagy
     Re:A Simple Question?30/09/2003 19:41:51Ken
          Re:Re:A Simple Question?01/10/2003 02:56:17J Rose
               Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?01/10/2003 06:10:31InnerCalm
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?01/10/2003 13:00:23Debby Hitchens
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?01/10/2003 17:04:51InnerCalm
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?01/10/2003 21:09:28Jim r
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 01:00:16InnerCalm
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 01:54:33Deb
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 02:16:38InnerCalm
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 03:29:37Jim R
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 06:08:44InnerCalm
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 14:34:44Jim R
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 00:28:57InnerCalm
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 04:25:02Jim R
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?05/10/2003 00:08:04Martin Messier
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?05/10/2003 03:05:44InnerCalm
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?06/10/2003 18:48:09Todd Sloane
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?06/10/2003 19:27:59InnerCalm
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?07/10/2003 04:04:41Todd Sloane
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?07/10/2003 21:57:15Fabiano Lazlo
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?07/10/2003 06:46:05Jim R
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 02:57:13Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 06:10:44InnerCalm
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 06:14:27InnerCalm
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 12:10:03Stephen Bray
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 04:11:47InnerCalm
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 08:22:42Stephen Bray
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 18:48:17InnerCalm
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?04/10/2003 06:56:46Stephen Bray
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?05/10/2003 03:20:50InnerCalm
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 20:13:38Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?04/10/2003 05:20:47InnerCalm
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?04/10/2003 16:40:38Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 16:10:20John Schertzer
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 20:24:15Ryan Nagy
               Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 02:59:03Pete West
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 12:47:41J Rose
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?02/10/2003 18:27:58J Rose
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?03/10/2003 00:11:42InnerCalm
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?04/10/2003 16:44:53Ryan Nagy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?04/10/2003 18:39:35InnerCalm
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?05/10/2003 04:19:10Ryan Nagy
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?05/10/2003 05:04:06InnerCalm
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:A Simple Question?05/10/2003 05:27:26Ryan

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