Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes
Posted by: John Grinder
Date/Time: 12/11/2002 19:06:22


Where did you ever get the idea that I am proposing that the consious mind (or more precisely the f2 filters) are of little importance? Who do you think modeled and coded the distinctions you use as the fundamental parts of your activity?

Have you looked at Whispering? Did you notice that the model for modeling in five phases places balanced emphasis on conscious and unconscious processes:
phase I: selecting and gaining access to the model: a mixed conscious and unconscious segment

phase 2: suspension of f2 filters - an unconscious phase

phase 3: imitation to criteria (the reproduction of the model[s  behavior as measured by the responses elicited consistently in the same times frames with the same quality - unconscious phase

phase 4: mapping the patterns assimulated and demonstrated to meet the criteria from the two data points (the original model and the modeler now qualified by behavior) onto an explicit model: a mixed conscious and unconscious phase.

phase 5: testing to ensure that the model now explicated is transferable in an effective and efficient manner: a mixed conscious and unconscious phase

Look at the section Bostic and I offered called Intellectual Antecedentes of NLP where some of the key sources of how you presently earn your keep are detailed and their impact on the creation and development of NLP is explicated.

Look, get a clue - perhaps it would assist to note that a model we all seem to recognize as having a deep influence in NLP, Gregory Bateson, pointed out numerous times in numerous formulations:

The logics of the conscious (f2) and unconscious (f1) are distinct in fundamental and irreconcilable ways. Further that any people (national group) or person who attempts to resolve this essential tension by living either completely consciously or completely unconsciously will never produce great art.

This is my paraphrase of Bateson's position.

I subscribe completely to this position and have endeavored my entire professional career to not only achieve this ever changing and dynamic balance personally but to design and implement programs that respect and develop such balance whether in our corporate work, training programs...

My personal observation is that westerners spend the vast majority of their life spinning in  tight little circles of internal dialogue and obsessive cyclic repetitions of images and feelings that have little or nothing to do with their present circumstances - they are rarely present and in those flashs where actual present experience brings through to shake into the present, they nearly reflexly scramble to escape present experience (FA) and seek again the masking oblivion of repetitive thoughts (that is, non-experienctial activity) to reassure themselves that what they thought the world was like before this violent interruption of their cacooned existence still is what the world is like. They spend significant energy and time constructing and defending maps that are nearly entirely detached from experience. They finally succeed in positioning enough filters in a feedforward configuration that they will never again be troubled by experience as the filters allow only material to pass that confirms what they already believe.   

While I suspect we might agree that the quality of the thinking (the f2 mappings) are shoddy and of a primitive nature (and therefore greatly require upgrading), the issue for westerners, at least, is not a lack of conscious activity, but the dearth of direct sensory experience - the only corrective source for these strange maps we typically call reality.

Your use of the phrase "running our brain" is revealing. So, NeuroSemantics is the art of running your brains. Enjoy, you are demonstrating that you have yet to appreciate one of the most fundamental distinction required for an intelligent approach to the study of humans.

The verb "run" in the sense you use it is a verb that proposed a mechanical process: you run a machine, do you run a person? The entire point made clearly in both Turtles All the Way Down and Whispering is that the rules that dominate the world of mechanical processes (physics) are in significant part distinct from the rules that dominate living biological systesm and to apply one to the one is to commit the most egregious type of thinking error - a logical typing error. Read the material that this website is designed to explore before babbling here please - it would upgrade the quality of the exchanges.

You suggest some sort of anti-intellectual bias on my part. Good god, I have patiently in Different Worlds (as well as other places) offered a detailed and formal representation of precisely how someone interested might add to the meta model usefully. I have repeatedly along with Carmen Bostic invited Hall to be explicit, sensory grouded  and formal enough to allow others to understand what he is proposing - he continues to cycle fluff. Various people have with the best of intentions attempted on this webstier to offer an intelligable representation (you know, sensory grounded, explicit) of meta states - meta, how specifically? No one has yet come even close. Look to yourself, Ernest and keep your faulty personal hallucinations about me to there as well.

Finally, you characterize Neurosemantics as modeling - You will find on pages 50 and succeeding, pages 179 and following pages, on pages 349/350 an explicit formulation of modeling as we do it in NLP. Please present an equally explicit representation of the modeling process as you all do it in Neurosemantics and perhaps there would be some value in a furher exchange. O

On the other hand, if you and your mates are unable to present material with enough of a description (you know, sensory based, explicit) about what you wish to claim and establish, then play somewhere else. This website has minimum intellectual requirements that you are not meeting.

John Grinder 

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
note-able quotes 10/11/2002 17:40:18Big Bird(Robin)
     Re:note-able quotes 11/11/2002 15:18:03Caefu
     ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 01:05:39BigBird(Robin)
          Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 01:17:09Ernest
               Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 19:06:22John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 19:40:09Caefu
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 20:49:16BigBird(Robin)
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 13/11/2002 05:19:14Stephen Michael Hawley
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 13/11/2002 13:34:15BigBird(Robin)
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 01:10:44Stephen Michael Hawley
                                             ReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 01:50:19BigBiird(Robin)
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 01:42:20Stephen Michael Hawley
                                             Re Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 01:53:54BigBird(Robin)
                                             ReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 02:20:28BigBird(Robin)
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 13/11/2002 13:34:24BigBird(Robin)
                    Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 20:46:21Caefu
                    Re: a simple come-back07/12/2002 15:56:30Ernest
                    Western minds13/01/2003 13:53:38maureen franks
                         Re:Western minds13/01/2003 22:03:42the count
                    Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 04/06/2003 11:01:32Robert
          Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 15:12:14Caefu
               ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 17:15:05Ernest
                    ReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 12/11/2002 21:17:08Kermit
                         Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 13/11/2002 23:52:48The count
                              ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 00:07:21Elmo
                                   ReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 00:39:08Ms P
                                        Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 14/11/2002 14:04:35The Count
                                             Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 06/12/2002 12:24:08BigBird(Robn)
                                                  Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 11/12/2002 14:00:55The count
                                                       ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 13/12/2002 00:39:58Bert
                                                            Re:ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 13/12/2002 16:27:05Mistermagloo
                                                                 Re:Re:ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 18/12/2002 21:22:33John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 19/12/2002 16:16:40Mr. Magloo
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 06/02/2003 21:33:43Wolverine
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 07/02/2003 06:36:24ernest
                                                            ReReRe:ReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 20/12/2002 15:32:54Don
                                                  Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 18/12/2002 22:35:09thepropagandist
                                                       Re:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 18/12/2002 23:32:09Michael Carroll
                                                            ReReReReRe:Re:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 07/01/2003 07:57:08Big Bird
                                                                 Re:ReReReReRe:Re:Re:Re:ReRe:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:ReRe:Re:ReReRe:note-able quotes 11/01/2003 18:41:53Bert
     Re:note-able quotes 14/01/2003 03:19:17Stephen
          :note-able quotes 14/01/2003 12:31:15Tone
               Re::note-able quotes 15/01/2003 01:14:14Stephen
                    Re:Re::note-able quotes 16/01/2003 08:27:03ernest
                         Re:Re:Re::note-able quotes 18/01/2003 19:04:37John Grinder
                              Re:Re:Re:Re::note-able quotes 02/02/2003 13:39:00Big Bird(Robin)
                                   new quotes 15/02/2003 16:46:53The count
                                        ReRe:new quotes 02/03/2003 11:14:21Bert
                                             Re:ReRe:new quotes 02/03/2003 16:33:50John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 02/03/2003 19:34:54Bert
                                                  Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 04/03/2003 15:56:34John Schertzer
                                                       Re:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 04/03/2003 22:31:55Bert
                                                            Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 10/03/2003 00:54:43Bigbird
                                                                 Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 10/03/2003 03:02:00Stephen
                                                                 Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 10/03/2003 11:47:06Anarchaist
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 11/03/2003 02:43:29Stephen
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 11/03/2003 19:56:50Antichar
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 12/03/2003 03:16:26Stephen
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 16/03/2003 13:35:23The count
                                                                                          Re :new and old quotes 16/03/2003 15:31:42Greg
                                                                                               Re:Re :new and old quotes 16/03/2003 19:32:19The count
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 17/03/2003 14:59:55Anakin
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:ReRe:new quotes 18/03/2003 04:36:01Stephen
                                             Re:04/07/2003 12:25:11Tony
     Re:note-able quotes 18/03/2003 08:44:10Stephen
          ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 22/03/2003 14:40:29Daisey
               Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 27/03/2003 07:09:28Big Bird
                    Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 27/03/2003 23:04:11The Procrasinater
                         rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 04/04/2003 09:40:39Ernest
                              Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 05/04/2003 21:21:32Stephen
                                   ReRe:Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 06/04/2003 01:18:36Yewis Karroll
                                        ReReReRe:ReRe:Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 11/04/2003 15:00:06bigbird(Robin)
                                             Re:ReReReRe:ReRe:Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 11/04/2003 21:03:54Stephen
                                             Re:ReReReRe:ReRe:Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 12/04/2003 11:24:24Pete West
                                                  Re:Re:ReReReRe:ReRe:Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 12/04/2003 17:36:06Robin
                                                       Re:Re:Re:ReReReRe:ReRe:Re:rReReReRe:Re:Re:ReReReReReReReRe:Re:note-able quotes 17/04/2003 14:19:14the count
     Re:note-able quotes 18/04/2003 04:09:44Stephen
          Re:Re:note-able quotes 18/04/2003 15:54:54Thecount
               Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 19/04/2003 03:27:49Stephen
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 16/05/2003 04:09:52The count
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 29/05/2003 01:15:03Big Bird
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 29/05/2003 03:46:02John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 30/05/2003 06:19:07Big Bird
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 31/05/2003 15:18:42Mary Swisher
                              ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 01/06/2003 03:08:41The count
                                   Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 02/06/2003 16:57:31John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 03/06/2003 00:37:11Nolan Mann
                                        Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 03/06/2003 09:31:54The count
                                             Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 03/06/2003 14:22:06John Schertzer
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 04/06/2003 01:02:57Mary Swisher
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 04/06/2003 15:02:57John Schertzer
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 05/06/2003 04:18:12Mary Swisher
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 05/06/2003 14:10:50John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:ReReRe:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 03/06/2003 09:41:06The count
                              A rose is a rose (Gertrud Stein)01/06/2003 18:36:27Raśl Platas
     Phenomenology / Street Photography / An Aesthetic Way.01/06/2003 07:22:50Chris Jones
          Re:notable quotes.08/06/2003 13:46:13Cookie Monster
               Re:Re:notable quotes.10/06/2003 20:58:04Borus Badenuff
                    Re:Re:Re:notable quotes.19/06/2003 15:10:24Cookie Monster
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:notable quotes.29/07/2003 11:59:41Ernest
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:notable quotes.on chess players02/08/2003 14:22:06Ernest
                                   notable quote26/08/2003 20:08:56Pete West
                                        Re:notable quote27/08/2003 02:32:58Ryan
                                             not a notable quote but something of note 27/08/2003 10:37:42Pete West
                                                  Re:not a notable quote but something of note 28/08/2003 10:47:25Pete West
                                        Re:notable quotes27/08/2003 03:14:09Ernest
                                             Re:Re:notable quotes27/08/2003 03:22:03Ernest
                                                  Re:Re:Re:notable quotes27/08/2003 10:56:12Pete West
     Re:note-able quotes 27/08/2003 17:14:35Robert Ballentine
          Re:Re:note-able quotes 28/08/2003 06:12:00Ernest
               Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 28/08/2003 11:01:43Robert Ballentine
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 28/08/2003 12:53:41Ernest
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 04/09/2003 12:04:24BigBird
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 04/11/2003 09:26:08Tank Malloy
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 07/11/2003 13:12:12Big Bird
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 07/11/2003 14:42:20Tank Malloy
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 07/11/2003 18:51:54John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 21/11/2003 22:02:03The count
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 22/11/2003 13:05:06John Grinder
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 22/11/2003 16:06:58The count
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 22/11/2003 18:32:34nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 22/11/2003 18:32:52nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 23/11/2003 01:21:31The count
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 23/11/2003 03:10:56nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 23/11/2003 14:12:12The count
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 22/11/2003 17:44:02The count
                                                            Re:notable quote04/12/2003 09:49:48Pete West
                                                                 Re:Re:notable quote04/12/2003 18:32:18kc
                                                                 Re:Re:notable quote22/12/2003 12:35:02The count
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:notable quote23/12/2003 01:58:38Pete West
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:notable quote23/12/2003 02:06:16The count
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 04/12/2003 23:06:21John Grinder
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 04/12/2003 23:51:36kc
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 19/12/2003 10:24:37Pete West
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 19/12/2003 22:45:19The count
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 20/12/2003 08:19:46Pete West
                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 20/12/2003 09:06:16nj
                                                                                          copyright20/12/2003 11:42:50Pete West
                                                                                               Re:copyright20/12/2003 14:05:41Anthony
                                                                                                    Re:Re:copyright20/12/2003 21:49:18John Grinder
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:copyright21/12/2003 04:37:14Anthony
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:note-able quotes 24/12/2003 14:04:26The count

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