Hey John, You wrote: "I enjoy responding to what you are posting" Which I take as a compliment...thanks 8) You also wrote: "If my style seems argumentative to you, cool" Not particularly...just my clumsy attempt to match your language...except my feeling stuck in the design vs modelling as opposed to design AND modelling frame of course...but that's proly just how I'm representing it...(both here and in my head)... I also think your defence of the terminology you and Carmen laid out/clarified in Whispering is very important...and worthy of a bit of fire... 8) You also wrote: "let's both blame the Jesuits" Sure...I'm always happy to blame anyone but me 8p You then wrote: "I am still waiting for a compelling example" I'll work on this (the last one was really just a light hearted comment)...but I think what Jon outlined is a nice addition to the discussion...thanks Jon! Later you added: "it would be stunning to do this with two very competent modelers independantly and then compare the resultant models." I'm doing the modelling workshop with you in Sept in Aus, so I'd love to discuss this further... You went on to say: "Interesting - imitation and design are non-overlapping in my lexicon, so for me, this doesn't work." And I fully agree that blurring this wouldn't help the aim of your work in Whispering either... ;) You added: "However your point that the difference between your unconscious imitating an observed behavior (one from the source, let's say) and an imagined one can be quite small is well taken." And this is the key to what I've been thinking about...something that Whispering highlighted for me... You wrote: "The difference is that the observed behavior (assuming that the source really is a genius and this is one of the behaviors that exemplifies this genius) is guarenteed to move in the direction of excellence whereas the imagined one may or may not." Absolutely... ...and based upon my point above it is also possible that my unconscious mind can compile completely new patterns from the wide range of genii (?) that I have been exposed to throughout my life... So, let's agree on the distinctions you've made and I'll happily fiddle around where the edges get fuzzy to see what I can find... roBman PS: Can we please drop the gender focus on my name...joHn 8)