No need to worry, Jim, even after years of martial arts training I still hardly get my nose to my knee, let alone get my foot in my mouth. But I'll keep trying. I do have more experience with Richard than Bandler T.V. That just happens to be my most recent.  Over the last 8 years I have had access to over 55 of his videos in which he is doing training, demonstrations and question and answer.  I have listened to CD's he has produced to affect significant personal changes.  There is one area I will admit he is a master, and that is in creating expectations.  Now, we all know how hard it is to do research in the field of psychology (NLP shuns it almost universally; for some good reasons), but from what good research (my critical equivalence for 'good' is grounded in the criteria used for most scientific studies; population size, double blind, clear manipulation of relevant variables and such)has been conducted we can very confidently talk about the role of expectation in personal change and transformation.  This is something Richard has talked about and knows is critical.  In fact, have you heard about his plan (perhaps Grinder's as well) to sell Placebos? Anyway, across the many, many different approaches to theraputic work, expectation plays a bigger role than any specific modality.  That is, within all modalities the therapists ability to create strong expectations for change plays a much more important role than what they do.  This, obviously, is one of the reasons you will find NLPers who 'know' all about NLP, but don't get results; Richard often used to talk about this as well (therapuetic change tapes).  Jim, I've read a few different posts on this list in which you very clearly demonstrate your agreement with 'whisperings' critera for ethical change work. Many of your comments are of a serious nature in this regard.  Well, do I need to begin listing the examples of Bandler violating not only 'whisperings' narrow critera, but most people's innate sense of ethics? I doubt I need to, but if you wish for me to I will be sure to limit myself to stories straight from the gurus mouth.  In fact, I might even be happy to get into a disscussion of Bandler's practices and how they relate to the criteria for ethical therapy established in 'whisperings'. One of my point about Bandler is that he is no longer a very good hypnotist. I can't prove- never will be able to.  There will undoubtably always be people to talk about what a great hynotist he is and if we stick to the asinine  mantra, "communication is the response you elicit" than, of course, we are all great hypnotists. But I think we can agree that there are specific skills and practices that generally typify excellent hypnotic work- at least those of us who believe there have been good books written on the subject think so.  Gilligan is an example of somebody who demonstrates, consistintly, these skills.  I played a tape of Gilligan to my friends and they all went 'in' like lights.  After watching enough of his video's I've noticed that Bandler often makes major contridictions in his statements about what works and what doesn't.  I'd be happy to go through these as well.  When I have brought these up with Bandler Devotees, they mostly tell me he is purposely contradicting himself for the learning process. The guy can't lose!  As can't any demigods, I guess.  No need to argue about how skilled he is because it'll all just come down to, "He works for me and many others and he doesn't work for you". But it isn't hard to talk about the congruence of his work with various standards.  Derrin