Look, as anyone can tell you, I don't get out much, and I have to climb on foot down here to the sheep station, to get a truck to the nearest one-bar, one general store town - and even then they won't let on line for more that ten minutes at a time ... But I clearly didn't know what I was starting, did I? If I can help: 1. To Robin Manuell - the comparison with Gurdjieff is well-made, and I think that psychologically, RB (in the time I knew him) reached into many of the same states. He did not, however, in any of that time ever refer to Gurdjieff. 2. To Anthony: yes, I do know it's a JG site, and I have read WITW - and to be honest, I don't feel very comfortable being here. You may know/you may recall/ that I was taken to task in WITW for daring (a) to apparently not know what a 'proof' is, and (b) for ever so gently 'poking JG in the ribs' (ie, criticising) as we English say in a paper I wrote in 2000. I do notice that somewhere else in another thread, JG gives a belatd explanation of his interests and studies into the the kind of cognitive psychology that followed on when the group called 'Generative Semanticists' realised their aim of - well for want of a better phrase, matching up meaning and the 1965-76 idea of 'deep structure' - that attempt wasn't going to fly. And, to tell you the truth Anthony, I'm not comfortable here still - and I only came in to look for something Google turned up. 3.To Jon Edwards: you're on the nose -as far as I understand Bandler's use of nested loops, both the term and the structure derive from computer programming. 4. To (I think) John Schetzer: - yes, there are precursors to the therapy use of nested loops - try Steve Lankton's The Answer Within, where he calls them Multiple Embedded Metaphors. 5. And finally, if I may, to Mr Grinder: I agree with you that there are those things called long-range dependencies, and nested dependencies - and they can be fun, can't they? My favourite is: What did you bring that book out of which I don't like being read to out of up for? You know, five prepositions all in a row. What I am quite clear about is that (a) in all my conversations with Bandler, he never, ever referred to such dependencies, and that (b) the one and only source for his use of the term 'nested loops' is from the world of computer program writing. Now, if you will forgive me, I have to begin the long journey home. After today, 'they' won't let me out of for another few days, now. Eric Robbie.