Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!
Posted by: Lewis Walker
Date/Time: 26/05/2003 14:08:33

Hi Mitch,

Good which I don't really have answers...but here goes anyway...

I don't know if you've ever come across someone in an acute psychotic state? There is very little shared consensual reality to work not easy to get much in the way of conscious/unconscious rapport. Perhaps if they are suffering from a more chronic delusional state you can pace that reality somewhat....or so the NLP stories go...I haven't seen any real evidence of good outcomes with follow up.

Acute psychosis can be a dangerous condition...for patient and potential frontline clinical staff. Their behaviour is erratic and difficult to make sense of...even if you do try to "enter their reality". One of my patients who went manic after stopping medication spent lots of money he didn't have...goodness knows why the banks gave it to him... and became quite aggressive when we tried to get him the help he needed. He ended up "doing a runner" and being chased all over the county. Their relatives have usually had a hard time well before the acute crisis ever arises...they're usually the ones ringing for help...not the patient!

There is also a diagnostic categories difference between the UK and the States. In the US the diagnosis of schizophrenia seems to be made more readily than in the UK...for less severe and more borderline states of deranged thinking...

In my experience many patients do well on longterm stop this prior to doing an intervention....NLP or otherwise...can cause major reversion of symptoms....and problems for patients, families, work etc. This aspect would need to be really well handled...perhaps by repeating the interventions over time with gradually reducing medication...who in NLP is interested in that?

I remember one of my early NLP trainers, Willie Monteiro, a psychiatrist also, who said the psychotic mind turns informational input into garbage and the same with their own informational output....gigo...he couldn't see how NLP could do much to change that....that was 10 years ago though...

The conditions better handled by NLP etc are those that relate to anxiety and mild/moderate depression...including PTSD. Here there is (usually) a shared consensual reality with a patient who has some insight into his dysfunction and is willing to cooperate with interventions...easier to get the requisite level of rapport etc...

Those in cognitive therapy are attempting to reconceptualise psychosis and use CBT to help. They are thinking more in terms of pathways into and out of psychosis together with the overlap with other conditions...part and parcel with biological predisposition to psychosis.

Pathways suggested are:
1. Anxiety - especially extreme panic -40% overlap with schizophrenia.
2. Depression - an overlap of 30%
3.PTSD - especially for psychosis with visual hallucinations - however instead of flashbacks they seem to be experienced as external events - less chance of reprocessing these - >50% overlap
4. OCD (obsess/compulsive) - 25% overlap. Schizophrenics tend to hear the voices as external rather than internal - similar type of "thought-blocking"
5. Personality disorder - a pre dating "paranoid" type personality in some. - 40% overlap.

BTW brain scanning shows most pyschotics who hear voices have no synchrony between the voice production part of their brain (may have multiple centres) and auditory recognition that they are producing the voice - unlike you and me :o) (who said that?)

CBT has been used with psychosis over the long term.They look at reality testing evidence that maintains delusions - re-evaluating beliefs about hallucinations - improving self esteem - improving coping and problem solving skills. Evidence for efficay is so far equivocal but promising...

Family therapy interventions can improve relapse rates...60% down to 20%...

Motivational interviewing...the jury is still out..

Overall direct attempts to change skills and cognitions seem to be less useful than attempts to compensate for and manage difficulties.

Well Mitch....that was probably more than you bargained on! Currently there is absolutely no evidence that a one off intervention will "cure" these problems...therapy is for the long haul....not many NLPers interested in that I suspect.

However if something like New Code games/high performance states or other NLP interventions can effect a one session major improvement then I'm all for it...and my previous posting about setting up and hosting a therapeutic NLP master-class with someone of the requisite skill still stands!!



Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 14:43:00Peter Stevenson
     Re:NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 16:09:52Pete
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 17:26:58John Grinder
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 00:31:53Zhi Zhi Chien
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!26/05/2003 00:36:40ali
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!27/05/2003 18:46:32John Grinder
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 20:50:32robert
     Re:NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 16:34:18John Schertzer
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 16:46:00Tbone
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 19:03:19Lewis Walker
     ReReReReRe:NLP doesnt work!!!22/05/2003 23:44:58The count
     NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 00:05:37thepropagandist
     Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 04:27:16Mitch
     Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 12:41:47Peter Stevenson
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 13:15:15walter
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 17:31:01Jim R
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 18:56:49walter
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 19:20:27Jim R
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!26/05/2003 08:39:14Robert Johansson
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 22:06:41thepropagandist
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!23/05/2003 23:29:22Michael Worthington
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!24/05/2003 04:09:00Peter Stevenson
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 01:05:39Michael Carroll
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 09:00:36Peter Stevenson
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 09:36:40Lee
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 10:01:45Lewis Walker
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 11:48:18Michael Worthington
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 17:53:43Lewis Walker
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!25/05/2003 23:40:00Mitch
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!26/05/2003 07:57:54Walter
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!26/05/2003 14:08:33Lewis Walker
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!29/05/2003 11:38:33Michael Carroll
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!29/05/2003 12:08:00Lewis Walker
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!29/05/2003 14:52:29Jim R
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!20/11/2003 12:04:33Steven
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!20/11/2003 16:47:54Lewis Walker
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!20/11/2003 20:20:58Stephen
     NLP does work!01/08/2004 00:29:38RMK
     Re:NLP doesnt work!!!05/08/2004 02:44:54Robert Holzhauser
          Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!05/08/2004 03:31:09Greg Alexander
               Re:Re:Re:NLP doesnt work!!!05/08/2004 04:53:56Robert Holzhauser

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