Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence
Posted by: Ryan Nagy
Date/Time: 01/02/2004 05:18:14


You wrote, regarding emergence:

"[ryan's comment] an acceptable beginning from which, hopefully, an explicit (even formal) representation of emergence will come - this is the task before Carmen and me with respect to emergence and completing RedTail Math."

I hope we have more conversations abut this topic.

You wrote: "I had always assumed that such appeals lie outside the boundaries of legitimate scientific enquiry"

They do. However, they are deeply ingrained in many peoples thinking and seem to sneak in at strange times.  I discuss them in psychology (below) but in my experience they are as likely in biology and other "hard" sciences.

You wrote:
"I was surprised by your inclusion of an injunction against appealing to any higher order principle..."

Ok. “principle”, that word works for me. It's when the principle turns into a de-facto "thing" that we get into trouble. I assume that most of what I say below is old-hat to you, but I thought it would be nice for others following the thread…

If you and I were out having lunch and you mentioned the idea of someone's "internal working model"  - I would have a way of making sense of what you said and how to put it into some type of real-time behavior and action. We could talk about rep systems, physiological manipulations, the verbal package - whatever - but ulitmately it would relate to some real-time process.  The term "internal working model" in that context is potentially meaningful. It is not an explanation of anything per se but a placeholder in our conversation about something potentially useful and describable.

Now, have that same term "internal working model" uttered in the context of a psychologist using it to explain a child's behavior  - "The child does behavior "x" because she has a stable internal working model.” We have just entered la la land, where the noun becomes an explanation. The child does “x” because of “hallucinated entity.” My experience in academia and every day life is that these "explanations" are ubiquitous. I have challenged "scientists" on particular nominalizations with certain success. The group will agree that "yes, we're oversimplifying." Then, two minutes later, another entity will pop up, "mental representations." I can challenge that, and the next thing you know someone brings up "temperament” as an explanation and then later it's a "genetic predisposition" etc. etc.  I do not get the impression that people are aware that they are saying little with their explanatory terms other than, "we simply don't know."

The term “mental representation” is a fascinating one, isn’t it? I can use it in the NLP community and it has a certain useful potential. In the world of psychology it (often) becomes an undefined causal entity just like “internal working model”

****BTW – If you want to really have a good laugh, try this on: “Structural Equation Modeling.” Here’s what you do: Ask people a series of questions using some type of a scale with values from one to ten. Let’s say you think the questions are about their “spirituality.” You now have defined a “latent variable.” (Read: hallucinated entity). Of course, you can’t simply study that “variable” by itself; you need to relate it to something. So you ask people a bunch of questions about their “health.” You then create another “latent variable” called “physical functioning.” Now, everybody knows that if you can quantify something it HAS to be REAL and SCIENTIFIC. So you know run mathematical models proving how peoples “high levels” of “spirituality” CAUSES improved “physical functioning.” Sheesh!!! And these people try to tell me that I'M strange.

A pleasure -


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Importance of Emergence19/01/2004 23:39:17Charlie Conklin
     Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 02:29:01pam g
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 05:48:50Stephen Bray
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 11:13:58Martin Messier
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 13:01:40Pam
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 13:23:27GSM
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 17:22:04Lewis Walker
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 18:20:41Martin Messier
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 20:30:45Lewis Walker
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence20/01/2004 22:23:16sid
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence21/01/2004 15:01:43Martin Messier
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence21/01/2004 16:52:58Lewis Walker
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence21/01/2004 17:59:07Tom
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 03:54:59Stephen Bray
     Re:Importance of Emergence29/01/2004 20:28:15nj
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence29/01/2004 22:28:27nj
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence29/01/2004 22:52:19nj
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 14:48:31Charlie Conklin
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 19:45:20yojimbe
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 20:55:30Charlie Conklin
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence31/01/2004 04:45:44yojimbe
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 19:45:49Ryan Nagy
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence31/01/2004 04:19:59zero cool
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence31/01/2004 17:47:00Stephen Bray
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence31/01/2004 17:41:51John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence31/01/2004 20:29:23nj
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence31/01/2004 22:28:36Mark MacLean
                              :Re:Re:Importance of Emergence02/02/2004 04:26:11Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence01/02/2004 05:18:14Ryan Nagy
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence04/02/2004 19:11:37John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence02/02/2004 10:01:21nj
               To: Charlie Conklin, Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 20:49:19nj
                    Re:To: Charlie Conklin, Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence30/01/2004 20:58:24nj
                         Re: personal emergence wanted 04/02/2004 09:44:36so Kool
                              Re:Re: personal emergence wanted 04/02/2004 10:27:05nj
                                   Re:Re:Re: personal emergence wanted 04/02/2004 12:49:55ny
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re: personal emergence wanted 04/02/2004 20:13:51nj
     Re:Importance of Emergence04/02/2004 21:57:43Todd
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence05/02/2004 03:57:54Ryan Nagy
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence06/02/2004 21:21:44Pete West
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence05/02/2004 05:28:35nj
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence05/02/2004 22:07:30Todd
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence06/02/2004 03:45:24nj
          Re:Re:Importance of Emergence06/02/2004 20:53:14John Grinder
               Re:Re:Re Silliness of Emergence07/02/2004 04:19:02Zero cool
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence07/02/2004 07:16:40nj
               Re:Re:Re:Importance of Emergence18/02/2004 22:53:54Todd
               Red Tail Math and the Importance of Emergence19/02/2004 18:11:09Amilcar
                    Re:Red Tail Math and the Importance of Emergence19/02/2004 22:31:54nj

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