Forum Message

Topic: Re:Re:Heterarchy - now categories
Posted by: Amilcar
Date/Time: 05/01/2004 23:22:48

i guess i should apologize for the hedge "i'm not fully sure' that my notion of 'logical types' is identical to JG's, i'll say that my notion of logical types closely aligns with what i think about 'categories'". This was a self-talk statement which i should have developed into something like: i'm not sure of the relationship that JG and CBSC posit between 'logical levels' and 'categories'. Part of the intent of my post, while explicitly metaphorizing and exploring my model of the relationship between Dilt's 'logical levels', aimed to draw out the relationship between logical levels and categories in the minds of JG and CBSC -and in that implicit/indirect case an utter failure.

So to make it explicit: what are the relationships between your (JG & CBSC) notion of logical types and categories (as found in the domain of cognitive semantics, i.e. lakoff etc.).

My post included the notion that a thought could be classified in two 'categories'/'logical levels' but i wasn't sure as to whether there is an strict either/or distinction or a relatively analog gradation as to whether a thought can reside as both a statement about 'identity' and 'capability' as in the statement "i can X" [as the word "I" can be thought of as a thought about 'identity' and the word "can" can be thought of as a thought about 'capability'].

This statement, "i can X" contrasts two kinds of statements probable in the example of a person trying to rescue themselves from a sinking boat, namely thoughts like a) "i have to get the flashlight off the boat with me" and b) what i would guess be f1 transform such as the thinking through of the untying of the liferaft (which in my expereince of emergencies would be accompanied by a different kind of self-talk which is more directive such as "get the liferaft untied").

You'll notice that the first two statements contain the word "i" invoking notions of a dissociated identity whereas the last statement does not. Consequently i would assume that such a self-talk formed thought as "get the liferaft untied" would not be classified under 'identity', but rather belong to the class of experience outlined by the flow researcher Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi calls 'non-conscious self-assurance' though assuming both identity (lost performative) and ability (able to do the getting') it would most likely be a candidate for 'behavior' in that it is an instruction of what to do.

So when i said that "i wasn't sure", that was supposed to refer to the issue of exclusivity, it wasn't that i wasn't familiar with WITW or my own notions of logical types, it was more an issue of not knowing the relationship between your definition of 'logical types' and my notion of 'categories' (which i think and hope is in accordance with the definition in cognitive semantics).

Reiterating: i would like to ask you (JG & CBSC) what relationship(s) do you find between 'logical levels' and 'categories'. Specifically at issue is the notion of whether a item or thought can be a member of two different "natural language partitions", as in borderline cases. I wasn't sure due to your (JG & CBSC) explicitly pointing to the ambiguitiy in "all the essential characteristics". 

In my examples above, of the three different thoughts, each thought could reasonably be identified (no pun intended) under one or more of Dilt's 'logical levels' (my categories). So my question is about the exclusivity of your (JG's & CBSC's)logical levels.

Example question would a 'mulatto' or 'octaroon' have to be white or black or could he or she be both? In this example of 'race' would the question of exclusivity reside in the definition of 'logical types' itself or in the rules governing the definition of what members of the set are included/excluded. Also, when the rules of the set are not clear on the issue of ex/inclusivity, which way "should" we lean: toward exclusivity (single classifications) or inclusivity (multiple classifications)?

I couldn't tease out the answer to the question because i just recieved the book three days ago and have only read through it once, and didn't have it on hand when writing the post, but thank you greatly for your prompt and perceptive response.

As for the examples as being more like self-organizing teams . . . sorry if i hadn't scratched the heterarchy issure for ya.


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
Neuro-logical levels17/12/2003 12:42:44GSM
     Re:Neuro-logical levels17/12/2003 14:56:30Anthony
     Re:Neuro-logical levels17/12/2003 15:14:03GSM
          Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels17/12/2003 17:58:10John Schertzer
               Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels17/12/2003 18:58:39GSM
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels17/12/2003 19:37:32John Schertzer
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels18/12/2003 16:43:32Stephen Bray
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels18/12/2003 16:49:11GSM
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels18/12/2003 19:51:12Stephen Bray
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels18/12/2003 21:48:09John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 04:53:33Todd
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 15:12:46John Schertzer
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 09:09:45nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 20:34:08John Grinder
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 07:46:40Stephen Bray
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 14:57:22John Schertzer
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 12:28:55GSM
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 14:50:35John Schertzer
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 15:17:25GSM
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 15:36:48John Schertzer
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 15:47:24GSM
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 16:29:32John Schertzer
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 17:52:16GSM
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 18:58:28John Schertzer
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 21:20:18GSM
                                                  representing rocks03/01/2004 20:40:49Amilcar
                                                       Re:representing rocks04/01/2004 16:48:02John Grinder
                                                       Re:representing rocks05/01/2004 12:04:45GSM
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels18/12/2003 22:31:47GSM
          Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 12:22:20Pete West
               Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 12:47:04GSM
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 18:24:47John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 03:04:27Pete West
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 20:17:46John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 20:47:16GSM
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 21:16:10Kate Sheffers
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 22:22:33John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 13:20:16Kate
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 21:48:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 10:22:47GSM
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 10:36:40nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 10:46:56GSM
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 20:06:07nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 13:30:09Kate
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 13:26:21Kate
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 13:49:44GSM
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 22:11:34nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 22:11:34nj
                                   Heterarchy03/01/2004 21:55:07Amilkar
                                        Re:Heterarchy05/01/2004 03:09:59nj
                                             Re:Re:Heterarchy06/01/2004 00:00:01Amilcar
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Heterarchy07/01/2004 18:00:55nj
                                             Re:Re:Heterarchy26/07/2004 05:58:59nj
                                        Re:Heterarchy05/01/2004 16:42:44John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Heterarchy - now categories05/01/2004 23:22:48Amilcar
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels20/12/2003 03:43:51nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 13:39:06kate
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 14:03:45Susan Landon
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 17:52:01spike
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels21/12/2003 21:35:23Lewis Walker
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels22/12/2003 03:34:10Spike
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels22/12/2003 12:55:24Lewis Walker
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels22/12/2003 17:07:49Spike
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels22/12/2003 17:57:43Lewis Walker
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels22/12/2003 18:51:59John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels22/12/2003 20:21:26Lewis Walker
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels24/12/2003 19:07:14John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels24/12/2003 21:38:43Lewis Walker
     Re:Neuro-logical levels19/12/2003 01:26:45nj
     Re:Neuro-logical levels26/07/2004 11:14:21John Grinder
          Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels27/07/2004 09:33:31GSM
               Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels27/07/2004 22:47:41John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Neuro-logical levels07/08/2004 20:28:49nj

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