Hi Jon Edwards A simple observations: you wrote, "I thought of 3rd Position as separate from 1st and 2nd (a detached, neutral observer), whereas, in fact 3rd Position includes 1st and 2nd Position among its resources" 3rd position is, indeed, separate from 1st and 2nd. The only sense in which 3rd includes 1st and 2nd is that 3rd contains 1st and 2nd in its scope - that is, within the perceptual space defined by 3rd, you find 1st and 2nd. This is an important distinction as any one of the three perceptual positions can be used quite effectively without the necessity of invoking the others, a practice well worth developing.   You also mention, "I had trouble with the concept of 2nd Position, as it seemed very dangerous to try to imagine what the other person is thinking and wanting. But then I imagined 2nd position as a kind of advocate or lawyer representing the other person (his "client") and putting forward their views/wants. This seemed to work better, as it allowed for the advocate to go back and check with their "client" if they were unsure or seemed to be getting it wrong. Does that make sense, or am I on the wrong track again?  :-)" 2nd position is a stepping into the experience of the other person (people) involved. You are correct that in the hands of a person who has not worked out their own boundary conditions, such a move could be quite dangerous (hallucinating the other person's needs, thoughts...). However, in the hands of someone who has good self definition and excellent calibration skills, it is priceless. We have worked with doctors and nurses, for example, who can use 2nd position for diagnostic purposes with great effectiveness (using labs test subsequently to confirm their diagnosis). In such cases, their ability to diagnose is a combination of straight calibration and 2nd positioning (WARNING - such deep 2nd positioning requires a filter to prevent uptake of material that could prove dangerous for person doing the 2nd positioning). Your description of 2nd position strikes us as entirely too left brained - the more effectives sets of 2nd positions depend strongly on unconscious processes. In the process of coming to a refined ability to second position, your comment about checking with the client is salutary - consider carefully how specifically you might want to accomplish this: metaphor, presuppositions... but almost never, direct questioning as much of what you will discover is unconscious in the person being 2nd positioned. A refined 2nd positioning also is a critical element in the modeling as described in Whispering. All the best, John and Carmen