Robert, Thanks for your response. Maybe I should ask the questions in a different way: Can anyone give an example of a Meta-State as described in Hall's original work? Based on the discussion of a meta-state being the same thing as 3rd position, my guess is that the answer is no. A meta-state is a state about another state. For example, feeling happy about your confusion is a meta-state. The feeling of happiness acts at a higher logical level in relation to the feeling of confusion. Feeling fear of fear is a meta-state that can produce paranoia. As you will see from these examples, a meta-state is NOT a disassociated 3rd position nor is it a set of content driven information (although I would agree that meta-PROGRAMS fit that category). A meta-state acts as a larger frame which will color / distort / inform direct experience. For example, reading an article with a preconceived belief is an example of the belief acting at a meta level to the experience of reading the article. Regardless of the actual content of the article, a person will interpret the MEANING of the article based on the higher level frames. Another example of this is demonstrated consistently in this forum: When acting from a larger, higher level frame of "John Grinder says that a meta-state is just 3rd position so it must be true" then no amount of debate regarding the content will make any difference. The higher frame will distort all content to fit neatly with the higher frame. (As a side note, I do not believe that Grinder himself is encouraging acceptance of anything just because he said it, especially given his desire to denominalize "truth." Of course, I welcome John's comments). Techniques like the phobia cure work when they act as a frame above the phobia itself. All NLP techniques add a higher level frame of "I can control my own experience" when they are successful. If a person is acting from the higher frame "this is not going to work" they will usually prove themselves right. We have had so much discussion in this forum regarding this topic without any explicit illustration of examples, I am concerned that many people have already made up their minds about this material before having an opportunity to really learn something new that can prove beneficial. But, as Dennis Miller used to say, "OF course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Ulic