Forum Message

Topic: Re:First Access
Posted by: John Grinder
Date/Time: 08/05/2003 07:48:53


Yeah, I'll take a piece of that!

Beautifully framed work - you set a fine standard.

The contrast between the two cases you offer is very instructive. There are two differences I would like to comment on:

1. In case 1 (the Feldenkrais exercise), the perceived sensations - as you state you are not perceiving your foot - only transforms of differences that define what the state of your foot was some milliseconds ago. These differences are transformed by your neurology in as yet unexplicated ways and presented to you at FA (firest access). You correctly point out that in the context of this exercise and given your skill and background training, it is quite easy to be conscious of the FA representations - specifically, those transforms of difference between your foot and the floor.

Please note that this focus (on the foot) has the usual cost - it requires most of your 7 + or - chunks of consciousness to appreciate the transforms of the differences that correspond to the intricacies of how your body is responding to the difference between your foot and the floor. One cost, for example, is your failure (consciously) to note the transforms of the differences that correspond to the contraction of the abdominals as you rock or those of the neck muscles stabilizing your head during the rocking motion or those of the automatic tracking of your eyes maintaing an apparent fix on the horizon as you rock...

Your question/proposal remains,

"Do we need to make a further distinction of First Access that does not make it to f2 (i.e. conscious/linguistic mappings)?"

I suggest a slight re-wording - instead of "make it to f2" I would say "is not subjected to f2 mappings. In any case, there are two historical proposals, each of which captures a distinct aspect of what you are pointing at:

1. in the 4-tuple proposed by Bandler and me in the '70s - - each of the variables (visual, auditory, kinesthetic, olfactory/gustatory) has a subscript (possibly a superscript) that can take one or both of two values "e" for external and "i" for internal. In the Feldenkrais case, the foot example would have a kinesthetic component with an "e" subscript indicating the contact point between the floor and your foot. The second case - the image of your dissertation (tor)mentor - in which the image (while perfectly FA) never achieves consciousness although critically its influence can be detected in your subsequent behavior - again the value of the subscript for the V variable will reflect an "e".

In Pattern of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D., volume II, Bandler, Delozier and me introduced various operators defined over the 4-tuple. In particular, the C operator is an operation that selects from the various values of variables that comprise the 4-tuple (equivalent to FA in Whispering as Carment and I mentioned in a footnote) those elements that end up in our consciousness. This can occur with or without f2 mappings as the two examples you offered instantiate.

All of this seems to be a somewhat awkward way of saying that experience (FA) can be unconscious or conscious, and that in either case, it will exert influence on behavior. Further, it is useful to make a distinction where the influence is coming from: that is, is it entirely internally generated or is that something lurking out there that is somehow associated with this particular FA.

All the best,


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

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