Forum Message

Topic: Re:First Access Revisited
Posted by: John Grinder
Date/Time: 12/05/2003 18:10:33


I have fascinated for a long time by the sequence that you describe. Moshe guided me through my first experience with it and I remain amazed by its efficacy. It is an expecially powerful way to rehabiliatate any part of the body that has been injured where the injury is to a portion of the body where there is bi-lateral symmetry. You memorize with exquisite detail the sensations of moving, say, your right arm (uninjured) in ways that are just beyond what you can do without any pain (the importance of feedback in all applications of Feldenkrais patternings) in your left arm (the injured one). You then transfer WITHOUT ATTEMPTING TO MOVE all the sensations memorized from the uninjured arm to the injured arm until you can feel them perfectly and then and only then, may you carefully move the "injured" arm.

My own experience (quite limited compared to yours) has been that this transfer works (your description) if and only if the visual (sometimes there are auditory stimuli as well) stimuli trigger the micro muscle movements that are associated with the other representational systems (indeed, visualization is largely nonsense unless it triggers the appropriate micro muscle movements). 

You appropriately point out that there is a distinction here but it is unclear how to characterize it. As you say, "So, imagining the movements, what the heck is it?" 

My first inclination is to point to the internal/external subscript on the various variable in the 4 tuple (the representations in the channels that define FA), and simply say that the actual movements on the right hand side of the body (let's say) are an example of sensations arising within the body through actual movement while the imagined movements are the consequences of the oversale transfer of the sensations (or perhaps, better said, the activation of the corresponding muscle groups on the unexercised side of the body (left, in this case). Remember that while the contralateral neurological pathways dominate (under normal circumstances) the sides of the body, there are extensive ipsolateral ennervations. I am intrigued by the possibility that they may be the basis for this class of exercises. Someone far more qualified would have to test this.

However that works out (or not), you point out,

"I want to say that it's first access, that people are producing micro-muscle movements while they are imagining the movements. However, I'm not convinced."


"Do f2 mappings consist solely of words?"

Nor am I - suppose, for contrast, we think about it as follows: we are confident from observations, modeling and even interviews that there are people: engineers, mathematicians, architects... whose professional competencies depend on a visual syntax. Yes, of course, some of them at some points in the computations and design work will include verbal (f2) cues to assist, stimulate... the sequence of images that they are manipulating. Let's recognize this as an example of a visual f2 mapping which is patently non-verbal - in other words, a visual, non-verbal f2 mapping, The imagined movements portion of the descriptions in this discussion strikes me as a corresponding example of a kinesthetic, non-verbal f2 mapping.

Athletes, Feldenkrais practitioners, dancers... are the experts in kinesthetic, non-verbal f2 mappings. They are the counterparts of engineers, mathematicians and architects in visual, non-verbal, f2 mappings.

What would be a brilliant contribution would be the development of a syntax of each of these systems: one for the visual non-verbal f2 mappings and one for the kinesthetic, non-verbal f2 mappings.

What do you think?

All the best,


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

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