Forum Message

Topic: :Re:Re:First Access
Posted by: Ryan Nagy
Date/Time: 13/06/2003 06:31:39

John wrote:

"OK you ask, "the process seems to assume disassociation...". Let's fill in the blanks in "disassociate X from Y" Third position in triple description is a classic example of one form of disassociation. More specifically, the movement from 1st to 3rd involves a shift in visual perspective, a shift in auditory quality (e.g. sound of your own voice) and always (by definition) a shift in kinesthetic state - that is, the kinesthetics of 3rd may not be the same as the kinesthetics of the 1st from which it came. In this particular case (the movement from 1st to 3rd (again, by definition) involves a shift of levels in a hierarchy defined by inclusion - "I see (from 3rd an image of) myself (in 1st)".
Now, you will remember from, for example, the construction of 3rd exercises in London, that it involves "stocking" certain resources beforehand in the posture, breathing pattern... that defines physiologically your personal 3rd. In the vocabulary you are using, this is both a disassociation - you are actively disassociating from the physiology of the state you have in 1st."

It took me a while to get back to the paragraphs above. They represent critical distinctions. Disassociation, to me, has often meant "not associated" or "lack of/minimal kinesthetics." I believe this distinction is implied in many NON-New Code NLP trainings. Your post and WITW is essentially saying, "Disassociation is associating into another set of V/A/K distinctions." Utilizing triple description in this "re-associative" way seems much more useful than assuming a lack of kinesthetics. After all, how could we ever truly have no K?

I do use term disassociation in another set of frames. For instance, I have done Feldenkrais sessions in which my sense is that a person is not "in" certain areas of his or her body. I could be working with a person through his arm feeling that the arm is basically dead, although the more or less functional. The phrase, "there is no there, there" comes to mind. Likewise, during my initial NLP training ten+ years ago I would be willing to say that I was disassociated in the sense of having kinesthetics that were in total disarray. Due to the vagaries of a confused childhood (a polite way of putting it) and massive drug use as a young adult, I simply was not fully associated into myself. God knows what the hell I was doing as I shifted perceptual positions. Moving from one hallucinatory state to another, I suppose. A more common pattern shared by many is misperceiving areas of themselves. For instance, where a person "thinks" that their back is and where it actually is (say, in sitting) can be off by a large margin leading to (for example) pain.

Anyone's comments are welcome.


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

Forum Home