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Topic: Re:Re:First Access
Posted by: Robin Manuell
Date/Time: 08/05/2003 16:33:32


Your quote from Bateson is I would propose, isomorphic to the task we have at hand, namely: "to create the beginnings of an appropriate theoretical base for the describing of human interaction"  (Bateson in the preface to The Structure of Magic part 1 R Bandler/J Grinder.

We create a map but fail to include the mapmaker
So we step back (to 3rd position!) and from that point of view we make a map of the map and the map maker.
Then we realise we have created another map maker so we take a step back ... and so on ad infinitum.


You misquote your own work.. The C operator as defined in Patterns 2 stands for congruency.  The R operator defines that which is available consciously, the L operator defines that which is (immediately) available unconsciously. 

By the way these chapters in Patterns 2 are I believe key to linking in the theoretical basis of NLP to the framework of cognitive science and the broader epistemological debate.  But as presented they are horribly ill defined as a model. I've brainstormed some missing elements of the 4 tuple as a necessary and sufficient theoretical model


I shall use the following conventions
<> defines a list of elements
V= visual A=Auditory K=Kinesthetic O=Olfactory G=Gustory
[] = "optional"
i = internal
e = external
t = tonal
d = digital

1) The 4 tuple or FA represented as

each element in the list is the product of a function (the transforms of the nervous system).  These functions are not defined.  In particular
*internal/external- it is common use to use one or other superscript, however FA contains both simultaneously, the choice of superscript points to the bit WE are interested.
*Each rep system has its own unique code- we need to include the submodality distinctions in the model
*Each rep system will share a common F1 "logic" or patterning and will also exhibit distinct patterning relative to other rep systems.
*We have no way of specifying "chunk" size within the model.
*We have no way of specifying constructed as opposed to eidetic

So while we have an abstract way of talking about that which is available at first access we have no clear definition of what first access is, it is simply a convenient verbal description at the moment.

2) The function Ad(). 

As defined in Patterns 2 Ad is the language function, the creation of an f2 representation. So

"a specific symbol string" =Ad(


I propose (and John you may understand this in the context of Andy Clark's paper if you have had time to absorb that) that language as a part of our thinking has to arrive there like everything else through First Access-

Time2 (<[V[ie],A[ie],K[ie] >)= Time1(Ad())

So our first access to the results of the function Ad could be

INternal kinesthetic -we feel our hands forming the words or our throat muscles moving
external Auditory - we hear what we just said or someone else says
internal auditory - we hear internally ditto
internal visual- we remember a word or sentence, we create one, we see words in a dream.
external visual- obvious I hope.

3) The function R()

As presented in patterns 2 this is "the preferred representational system", that which is consciously represented. Given that "the validity of a representational system diagnosis is not more than 30 seconds" (J Grinder, inspiritive interview)  further definition of this function would include:

*What is the method of selection of the current conscious representational system?
*How does the limitations of consciousness relate to chunk size. what function determines chunk size?

These are fundamental questions about "the spotlight of attention"

Any attempt to explicate this function will I propose have to include a recognition of the "self" or "I" as an f2 socially mediated construct internalised as an f1 model and in an ongoing act of creation.

4) The function L()

As presented in Patterns 2 this is "the lead system" or that part of our experience which influences our behaviour that we are not conscious of.

By now I think it should be clear that we have no operational definition for this function. we can use the calculus to describe experiences such as the ones Ryan mentions and we can use it as a useful pedagogical device as you do in Patterns 2 John but I think it would be a really interesting exercise to begin to relate this nomenclature back to some neurophysiology and some robust introspection.

In conclusion I wish to return to something you said Ryan.

you wrote:

"1. I am lying on the floor doing a Feldenkrais lesson. With my knees bent and my feet on the floor, I am gently rocking my left leg back and forth. Occasionally, I will push my foot into the floor.
I am not directly perceiving my foot am I? Any sensation, any feeling, that I have of my foot, no matter how direct it may seem, is simply news of a difference. The sensation itself is a transform of an event, not the event itself. The feelings I perceive of my foot are First Access, yes?"

While what you write is one way of describing what is happening I think you are mistaking the map for the territory.  Language is so imbedded in our thinking that we forget that it immediately introduces boundaries that do not exist.  Take the sentence

"I see the flowers"  the structure of language introduces and imposes a subject "I" and an object "the flowers".  I challenge you in First access to discover that there is only "the process of seeing"

"First Access" is a boundary, a line drawn in the sand that has no phemonological existence.  As soon as you say "I feel my foot" you have created a boundary between yourself and your foot which does not exist.  There is only the process of feeling.  I challenge "you" to go in search of "you" without getting lost in infinite recursion!!!!

Robin Manuell

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

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