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Topic: Re::Re:Re:First Access
Posted by: John Grinder
Date/Time: 13/06/2003 18:24:12

Hi Ryan

Good, I was hoping you would come back to this exchange.

One thing is clear - the vocabulary describing the distinctions we are attempting work out is highly impoverished - at least in English. Let's agree that the experience (FA) is the thing wherein we catch...  that is, whether we have an adequate vocabulary does not change the actual experiences. In this sense we are attempting to make certain experiences and expecially shifts between certain distinct set of experiences explicit. This is one definitin of NLP modeling: mapping from tacit knowledge (after all, we do do it) to explicit knowledge. Certainly in certain  contexts such as this website, such vociabulary distinctions would be welcome.

I suggest that one amplification of the terminology might proceed by treating the predicate "disassociate" like the verb "transfer".

"Ryan transferred the sensations in his right arm to his left arm."


"John disassociated from 1st position to 3rd position."

I suspect that this was at least implicitly your intention for suggesting "reassociate" - in a schema like we are proposing then, we would have,

"Ryan reassociated from 3rd to 1st position."

Now, unfortunately as you well know, there are vast numbers of the living dead wandering the countryside. These are people who disassociated from 1st years ago and failed to disassociate to a new full kinesthetically grounded state - they're floating - mildly teathered to and feeding on memories of kinesthetic experiences that they call emotions. We could capture this phenomena by using the null value in the phrasing,

"They disassociated from a natural 1st position (to nothing/nowhere)."

that is, we simply do not specify one of the terms in the relationship called "disassociate".
There are well-formed sentences such as,

"Ryan transferred the material by truck."

in which the destination of the material transferred by truck is simply not specified. This issue would then become a issue of recovering the deletions implicit in the zero value in the predicate "disassociate", its missing argument - namely the "to" portion of the representation. 

You wrote,

"Disassociation, to me, has often meant "not associated" or "lack of/minimal kinesthetics."

I think that this is the common usage - but I'll be damned if I will roll over for people attempting to hijack a perfectly good predicate.

It reminds me of the hijacking of "meta" by any number of no doubt well-intentioned incompetents. This latter probably occurred because the term "meta" while ubiquitous from the earliest work in NLP applications (see for example, the section in The Structure of Magic, volume I, page 24 or the extended remarks distinguishing meta messages from paramessages in The Structure of Magic, volume II, part II entitled Incongruity, especially pages 29 - 47) was not formally defined by Bandler, Pucelik (who founded a training company called Meta in the mid-70's) or myself. So, let work this one out.

I suspect that the origin of the negative connotations associated with the term "disassociation" was its sloppy use in psychiatry where I believe it was used as an atomic predicate and represented a pathological diagnostic category. God save from the linguistics of psychiatry!

At any rate, for me the opportunities offered by making all this explicit are dazzling. It is the state counterpart of mythical shape-changing and, indeed, involves, given our (Carmen and I in Whispering) insistance on the relationship between state and physiology (The Chain of Excellence, for example, on page 233 of Whispering), such moves actually have a significant element of shape changing.

There are two issues that require further development:

1. state transition functions (how you get cleanly from state A to state B). Carmen has developed, as you know from the work in London, an elegent and refined kinesthetic lead process for moving between 1st and 3rd position (and implicitly, although I believe she didn't have time to take the group through it, movement from 3rd to 1st). There are state shift jump strategies if you choose to use a visual or auditory lead that we (Carmen and I) have developed and tested that are also available. However, I can easily imagine a much fuller set of explicit and refined state transition processes.

2. Imagine taking a group of dancers, actors, Feldenkrais trainers... (any group with really refined 1st positions kinesthetics), instructing them in the full triple description (adding in 2nd and 3rd and the tranisition options available) and then exploring what the limits of physiologically driven state jumps are.


Finally, your examples of the "dead" limb syndrome you have encountered in your Feldenkrais work as well as references to dissapated youth activities are instructive. It would be very interesting to puzzle what total disarray kinesthetics might be - I suspect again that it is a state physiologically defined by incongruent snippets that come from separate and otherwise (other than the personal history of the person experiencing it) slammed together without any natural integrity (they simply don't fit well together physiologically).

BTW, there is an extended and brilliant representation of the dead limb issue from a 1st person perspective by Oliver Sacks in his account of his experience as a patient (he is a physician and psychiatrist) after having broken his own leg on a hiking experience in Norway. You can find this account in "A Leg to Stand On".


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

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