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Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited
Posted by: nj
Date/Time: 11/10/2003 23:52:29

(I don't have my copy of your book anymore, but my thoughts, as expressed in this post, are based on my reading of your book and your posts to this forum.)

Hello, Dr. Grinder (and Ms. Bostic St. Clair).

Rather than explore my fears regarding YOU exploring technological possibilities, let me tell you what I think about your explanans of the question "what is unconscious uptake during modeling?" being "suspending F2 filters".

If I want to learn a method of modeling, I may consciously check if I am achieving the results as I learn the behavior, and I don't find anything wrong with doing that in some circumstances.  Only if I need to learn the exemplar's internal strategies (VAKOG), relied on during the target behavior's performance, do I need to practice the person's behaviors, while I'm in a trance state, and while I'm in the presence of the exemplar.

For me, the term "F2 filters", has the definiens "all cognitive processing of F1 and F2 data, during a learning experience".  If the experience of learning, with F2 filters suspended, didn't rely on F2 filters, then all I'd do during unconscious uptake is stand around passively receiving F1 data, without performing the internal computations I use to respond to my environment.  So a person does rely on F2 filters,as he is (unconsciously) processing F1-transformed data, as he models, or he wouldn't be able to model.  So an explanans, for the explanandum "what is unconscious uptake during modeling?", can't be "suspending F2 filters".

As I wrote above, a trance state could serve me to imitate another's VAKOG strategies.  If your modeling method is only intended for use when you need to model an exemplar's internal strategies (VAKOG), then it's worth my exploring whether the explanandum "what is unconscious uptake?" has the explanans "experiencing a trance state".  Maybe some trance state qualifies as allowing modeling while F2 filters are not operating.  My own experience of trance states, states experienced during interpersonal contexts which included contingent responses from me to my environment (the people in it included), could not have occured if I did not have F2 filters operating.  So I don't think any trance state qualifies as a state equivalent to suspending F2 filters.  Of course, you're the expert, so if you say such trance states exist, then I could provisionally accept your testimony, and my exploration of your explanans "suspending F2 filters" would be over.  If you taught me, during a training of yours, a way to enter a state of trance in which my F2 filters are suspended, AND I can model someone, then, that's an astonishing result!

Consider explaining "What is unconscious uptake during modeling?" by another explanans than "suspending F2 filters".  Ideally, your explanans of what unconscious uptake entails would enable you to form an operational definition of "unconscious uptake", a definition verifiable by a (non-neuroscience enabled) intrapersonal check of a prior or current experience's internal state components.

An additional comment:

Unconscious uptake during modeling might require that the modeler not engage in internal dialog.  But the explanans of "what is internal dialog" has alternatives, including:.

1.  consciously talking to yourself internally
2.  consciously listening to yourself talk internally
3.  unconsciously experiencing internal dialog (necessarily verified by means other than conscious self-awareness of your internal dialog, of course)
4.  responding to internal dialog
5.  consciously hearing (and making meaning from) internal dialog

My issues with a plan for me to  enter a state of unconscious uptake are solved if all I have to do is stop internal dialog describable by explanans (2).  I can continue having internal auditory verbal experience, I am free to respond to my internal dialog, and I don't HAVE TO consciously respond to, or make meaning from, my internal dialog, what it sounds like, or what it said. 

And isn't it true that a person can enjoy unconscious uptake?  His consciousness doesn't wink out during unconscious uptake, and he doesn't find that he can't remember what experiences he had during unconscious uptake.  He is conscious of his experience during an event of unconscious uptake, in other words, after that event is over.  I would need that enjoyment during my events of modeling, and can have it, if I can truly pay attention to my internal dialog.

Distinguishing listening to, responding to, and hearing (and making meaning of) internal dialog,  while being clear about what logical type I term "listening", in my own explanans of the question "what is internal dialog?", is helpful to me. 

It's helpful because:

1.  I don't try to silence internal dialog, so I'm not driven to stupid acts by my doubts, convinced by the epistemological inadequacy of asking myself "Am I talking to myself?  Am I talking to myself?"

2.  I don't look for answers to my epistemological problem, in my angst over my unsilenced internal dialog, by concerning myself with a metaphysical theory of consciousness, and with the state management exercises of that theory's proponents.

3. I don't feel hopeless about achieving such a state of silenced internal dialog on my own, so I don't turn to neuroscience or biochemistry to provide, explain, or interpret a state of silenced internal dialog. 

I sorted out the vague sense I had of what "silencing internal dialog" entails for me personally, so I now don't have to care about how to achieve a state of verifiably silenced internal dialog. And that's why I'm helped in all the ways I just listed.

If you were to say that unconscious uptake during modeling requires me to attain a state of silenced internal dialog, then, for me, a state where I don't consciously have to pay attention to internal chatter, while still being free to have internal chatter and make meaning from it, consciously and unconsciously, will serve me during my unconscious uptake.  To have such a state would be a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for me, personally, to experience unconscious uptake during modeling, unconscious uptake of the kind you describe in your book, Dr. Grinder and Ms. Bostic St. Clair.


ps: and if you know that the logical type of silenced internal dialog that I described above, is not a necessary condition for me to perform unconscious uptake during modeling, well, I suppose, if you were attending to my modeling performance, I'd try to fake for you whatever logical type of silenced internal dialog you think I need.

Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

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