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Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access
Posted by: John Grinder
Date/Time: 12/05/2003 05:18:56


A pleasure!


"As in the learning of any complex skill, the chunks change through time. Initially, consciously tracking the foot might be a challenge, however with training, tracking foot, leg, spine, and shoulder both individually  (sequential and/or individual chunks) or all at once (creating a new chunk) is possible. I will assume that you (more or less) would agree."

I certainly agree - your observation is paradigmatic: you cleanly trace the first steps of, as you say, "the learning of any complex skill": variation in chunk size and the manipulation of part/whole hierarchies. Describe the transfer function from conscious to unconscious patterning that seems to accompany learning and we have three of the essential variables for the discussion.

2. "BUT - Now I am starting to have doubts. I agree that the class of experiences noted above do in fact "exist" or at least are more or less useful descriptions of a process. However, the process seems to assume dissociation, does it not?"


"I am speaking of embodied feeling and sensation."


" I am creating a map but it is an embodied real-time map of as much as I can sense of myself at a particular point in time. Complete? No, but it is as 1st person as I can be and relatively associated."

OK you ask, "the process seems to assume disassociation...". Let's fill in the blanks in "disassociate X from Y" Third position in triple description is a classic example of one form of disassociation. More specifically, the movement from 1st to 3rd involves a shift in visual perspective, a shift in auditory quality (e.g. sound of your own voice) and always (by definition) a shift in kinesthetic state - that is, the kinesthetics of 3rd may not be the same as the kinesthetics of the 1st from which it came. In this particular case (the movement from 1st to 3rd (again, by definition) involves a shift of levels in a hierarchy defined by inclusion - "I see (from 3rd an image of) myself (in 1st)".

Now, you will remember from, for example, the construction of 3rd exercises in London, that it involves "stocking" certain resources beforehand in the posture, breathing pattern... that defines physiologically your personal 3rd. In the vocabulary you are using, this is both a disassociation - you are actively disassociating from the physiology of the state you have in 1st. This is the initiation point - you also have a destination point - the 3rd physiological defined and prepared by you eons ago, waiting for you.  I am guessing that in your terms, you are choosing your new state. Since the anchoring is completely physiological, you are moving at extreme speed (for that system) from one physiologically defined state to a different physiologically defined state. The shift offers a fundamentally different perception of the context in which this occurs and from which an avalanche of choices tumbles. The choreography of a sequence of clean movements from 1st to 3rd (and then, of course, to some new 1st), you sustain choice and more to the point in this conversation: body integrity - since the body (phsyiology) is the lead system, the dance promotes congruency.

So, I would propose that the process is indeed inherently disassociative, and when choreographed as described offer a powerful strategy in pursuit of a preferred fully associated state. With the sensibilities of years of Feldenkrais, I would imagine that you could nearly teletransport.

Reminds me of a story - you may remember the description Carmen and I offered in Whispering about the work I was doing at St. Paul's in Vancouver (where the 6 step reframe magically appeared). In the first training I had done there some months before, the physician that was the closest associate of Leonard (the physician who was my direct sponsor) has expressed scepticism about NLP and anchoring in particular. I assured him that his position was most reasonable as he had no experience. This seemed to ease him. I was doing a demonstration and fortuitously (or perhaps he was cleverer even than I thought) he was standing directly to the right side of the demonstration subject such that the light entering from entering through the windows highlighted perfectly the neck of the subject. I happened to do a two state anchoring sequence en route to some objective. He hurried up to me at the end of the work and with great satisfaction announced that anchoring was valid. His perceptual position had allowed him to witness (watching the carotid artery) the movement of the pulse of the demonstration subject from 120 in state X to 80 in state Y.

All the best,


Entire Thread

TopicDate PostedPosted By
First Access08/05/2003 00:41:42Ryan Nagy
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 03:55:03richard
     Re:First Access08/05/2003 07:48:53John Grinder
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:33:32Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:27:18Tbone
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 17:36:15Robin Manuell
               Re:Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 18:10:08John Grinder
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access09/05/2003 11:47:09Robin Manuell
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access11/05/2003 03:40:28Ryan Nagy
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access12/05/2003 05:18:56John Grinder
                              :Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 06:31:39Ryan Nagy
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 18:24:12John Grinder
                                        Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access13/06/2003 23:47:53nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 01:30:47nj
                                             Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access14/06/2003 17:49:48John Grinder
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 05:45:04nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 18:45:38John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re::Re:Re:First Access22/06/2003 23:57:55nj
                                   Re::Re:Re:First Access16/10/2003 04:59:57Todd Sloane
          Re:Re:First Access08/05/2003 16:55:33Robin Manuell
     Re:First Access10/05/2003 04:02:26Chee Tan
          Re:Re:First Access10/05/2003 17:52:30John Grinder
     First Access Revisited11/05/2003 20:43:02Ryan N.
          Re:First Access Revisited12/05/2003 18:10:33John Grinder
               Re:Re:First Access Revisited13/05/2003 20:27:05Ryan N.
                    Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/06/2003 18:56:19John Grinder
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 05:27:54nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 07:10:36John Grinder
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 10:42:09nj
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 19:00:12John Grinder
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/06/2003 23:52:55nj
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 05:40:35nj
                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited25/06/2003 16:44:35John Grinder
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited11/10/2003 23:52:29nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited12/10/2003 18:05:48zhizhichien
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:11:31nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 01:28:04John Grinder
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited14/10/2003 21:40:40nj
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 16:30:00John Grinder
                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited15/10/2003 23:47:34nj
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited16/10/2003 22:35:19nj
                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 04:05:06Pete West
                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited03/11/2003 07:08:30nj
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited17/05/2004 07:20:28nj
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:First Access Revisited22/05/2004 02:34:23nj

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